Concealed Carry Worldview (YMMV)

RoyOdhner

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I read the handgun and survivalist rags and forum postings with a certain bit of humor. Some people live and die by what these sources have to say, and respond with vigor to anybody who questions the wisdom of these sources. Others seem hell-bent to do the exact opposite. Some fall somewhere in the middle. I’m kind of a middle of the road type of guy.

I do not believe that there are legions of methed-out, psychotic, steroid pumping, sex offending, biker zombies lurking around every corner. I do not get routinely refitted for the newest tinfoil hat. However, as a former correctional/community supervision officer and current mental health caseworker at a large county jail system I know that there are some really dangerous and unstable characters out there. Should you come across one (or should one come across you), the odds that a LEO is gonna be anywhere in your immediate vicinity is pretty slim. As a freedom loving citizen, I keep an eye on my government but do not think that all misguided legislation (enacted by either Republican or Democrat legislators) is a sign that vacant Kmart stores will soon be used for internment camps. I'm certainly not about to go off an join a militia because as a student of world history, I've yet to find an example where such militias did not ultimately mutate into the very thing they originally claimed to oppose and ultimately imposed their own form of misery upon those they claim to be protecting.

However, the unpleasant truth is that we need to be able to defend ourselves. Since most of us don’t have our own private security detachment, and LEO’s can’t be everywhere at the same time, and because it’s impractical for most us to carry a cop, most of us need some sort of personal protection. Unfortunately, that leaves us with one practical option – carrying a firearm. Since trying to conceal a 12 guage or an AR or AK is not such a realistic option for most of us, that leaves most of us carrying pistols. I know I certainly don’t want to be humping a shotgun or carbine all day, so I pack a pistol.

There are many self-defense philosophies… probably as many as there are individual gun owners. In my case, I think that anything that gives 10” – 14” of penetration w/decent expansion is gonna work for civilian self-defense purposes. Granted, I prefer that the FBI 12” – 18” standard be met, so I prefer to carry a gun chambered for 9x19. However, I’m not gonna feel nekked if I’m only carrying my Polish P94, chambered in 9x18, and scoring 10” – 12” inches of penetration w/expansion if stoked with Hornady Critical Defense or XTP rounds. Ditto on my G42 with 11” – “13 using the same ammo chambered for 9x17.

I don’t think that the only true defensive caliber starts with “.4”, and I don’t think I need all manner of tacticool gizmos (from bayonets to photon torpedo tubes) for effective self-defense. Gimme a good pistol chambered for 9x19, stoke it full of good ammo like Hornady FTX/XTX or Federal HST, and also gimme a good taclight and I’m good to go. I’m also good to go with a Makarov, P64, G42, or a PPK with the right ammo and a decent taclight. In fact, due to my unique situation, I can’t really carry anything much bigger that a SCCY – and I’ve been under this constraint for so long that I really can’t see myself adapting to something bigger, like a G19 or a 1911. Frankly, I don’t see the need even if I did not have my current constraints. Others have differing needs, but my SCCY or Shield meet my needs. However, my need for discreet carry trumps my need for capacity, so my Shield is probably gonna wind-up being my primary EDC.

But my needs are my needs. They are not anybody else’s needs, and I don’t presume to know everybody else’s needs. Unlike the libs or really bellicose gun forum trolls, I’m not about to dictate the self-defense needs of others - or demean their choices in gear. I certainly don’t criticize others for having perceived self-defense needs that are different than mine. I might question the need or feasibility of routinely packing a Desert Eagle, but if you think you need to do it then do it. Concealed carry meets my need for personal protection and desire not to alarm others who feel uncomfortable around guns, but if you believe that you need to open carry then do so when legal. I might not think that the 1911 hung the moon or believe I’m nekked if I don’t carry a weapon chambered for .45ACP, but that’s cool cuz you might not think that 9x19, 9x18, or 9x17 (my preferred rounds) or guns chambered for them are adequate for your needs.

Self-defense needs are personal, but in many cases they’re also timeless. Pocket pistols chambered in .22 (LR or WMR), .25ACP, .32ACP, or .380ACP have been successfully defending people for a century or so. So have Snubbies in .38spcl. They’ve certainly been surpassed by many of the subcompact 9MM pistols out there, but these older guns still work. In fact, there are some situations when a NAA mini revolver, SW 642, Beretta Tom Cat, or Taurus TCP are gonna be the only feasible weapon to have on you – and if such weapons worked 100 years ago they’re gonna work today… probably even better with today’s modern ammo offerings.

So my carry philosophy is this: carry small and light. Subcompacts in 9x19 like my Shield are preferred, but my NAA Pug stoked with .22WMR (Maxi Mag or Critical Defense) is a nasty little beasty and will be effective. (Note, effective is not the same as optimal - it just means it will get the job done in a pinch). My philosophy is that any pistol that delivers enough pain compliance incentive to make an attacker back off is gonna work for me. I don’t need them dead, just out of the fight and no longer posing a threat to me or my family. My deadly force policy is simple: there is no stand my ground. I’m going to advance as rapidly to the rear as I can, and only fire my weapon if there is no other alternative and a thug is posing a direct threat to me or my family.

You can’t just assume that you can blast your way out of trouble – or that it is always legal to do so… or that you will be immune from prosecution or civil liability for doing so. You own every chunk of lead you send down range, and will be accountable for every person you hit other than your attacker – and you might just be held liable for shooting him/her. If you shoot an individual much beyond 10 yards you’re gonna find yourself under scrutiny and you might find yourself in prison or owing tens of thousands of dollars to your “victim” or his/her estate. Killing an individual over a bass boat, car, or any other material item might just result in serious prison time. Stand your ground might not always save your butt as a defense strategy. If you kill an innocent bystander when you went into “spray and pray” mode, you’re gonna be doing prison or probation time – and be paying tens of thousands of dollars to your victim or his/her estate.

Caliber will never trump shot placement or make up for lack of proficiency, vigilance, discretion, and a survivor mindset – but even those won’t necessarily keep you out of trouble. Whatever you carry, shot placement is king and you must realize that a one shot stop is not likely to occur. Situational awareness is probably gonna keep you out of a situation where you need to use your weapon, but not always. Discretion means that you would do everything feasible to avoid placing yourself in a situation where you need to use deadly force, but it doesn’t mean that such a situation won’t arise. Survival mentality means that you’ve conditioned yourself to believe that you’re gonna prevail and survive, regardless of situation or weapon, should you find yourself in a position where all options other than deadly force have failed.

This isn't a game we're playing here. We are not little Captain Americas who will save the local Wally World from ISIS terrorists. We shouldn't be itching to take a life or constantly creating mental scenarios in which we have to. Vigilance is not the same fantasy, and there reaches a point where a concern for safety becomes a paranoid (or grandiose) delusion. Living in fear is a diminished quality of life. We're responsible citizens who have taken legal and reasonable means to defend ourselves and our loved ones. If we're held hostage to fear, then we've lost the quality of life we are trying to preserve.
 
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I learned my lessons during my 30 year LEO days. I had to use deadly force more than once and each time my issued .38 Spl. did the job, allowing me to retire and enjoy my family. Like has been posted my self defense needs are mine and I don't dictate what others should do. If you believe that nothing trumps something that begins with a "4" then go for it. But if you decide to carry than make sure you maintain the moral high ground and don't go looking for trouble b/c you'll find it. I mind my own business, try to fly below the radar and maintain situational awareness as much as possible. I'm too old to fight anyone and too crippled to run away.
 
The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that pain will stop an assailant. Handguns seem to have dismal stopping ability on men, despite the fact magnum handguns kill deer and hogs fast if you put the bullet through a lung. Men have been shot through a lung and stayed on their feet long enough to kill several men. Plenty of men have been fatally wounded and were still able to keep fighting for a long time. Considering the poor stopping and killing rate of handguns on men, I wouldn't rely on their ability to cause pain to do much of anything for me. While I carry 9mm handguns at times, I would never stop shooting until I was sure the attacker was down for good. One round almost never does it with a 9mm. A "dead" man can shoot you as well as one that hasn't been shot.
 
Pain will be non-existent or significantly delayed if the bad guy is 'on something', whether it's meth or simply adrenalin. Thankfully I've never had to shoot anyone. The one time I came close, he gave the opportunity to substitute blunt force trauma for bullets. It was not your 'textbook' scenario. It was an in-law off his prescribed meds and hopped up on 'other' meds. He was crazy, armed and intent on harming another family member. Right at the point of me having to shoot to save a life, he became distracted for a split second. This provided the opportunity for a major blow to the back of his head with the 'butt end of a heavy piece of machined steel'. :-) I can't even imagine receiving a blow like that. It worked to disarm him but it took several more seconds before it actually had any effect on him. It never had the effect you would expect on a sober, sane person.

All that said, don't expect pain to play much of a role in the immediate moments after a defensive encounter.
 
The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that pain will stop an assailant. Handguns seem to have dismal stopping ability on men, despite the fact magnum handguns kill deer and hogs fast if you put the bullet through a lung. Men have been shot through a lung and stayed on their feet long enough to kill several men. Plenty of men have been fatally wounded and were still able to keep fighting for a long time. Considering the poor stopping and killing rate of handguns on men, I wouldn't rely on their ability to cause pain to do much of anything for me. While I carry 9mm handguns at times, I would never stop shooting until I was sure the attacker was down for good. One round almost never does it with a 9mm. A "dead" man can shoot you as well as one that hasn't been shot.

Statistically speaking about half of all stops in self defense shoots are psychological stops where the person gets shot, decides that really sucks and stops doing what ever they are doing that is getting them shot to avoid getting shot again. For the half, the caliber just needs to have enough punch to make it clear the person got shot. The .22 LR and .25 ACP don't reliably get that done but everything from .32 ACP on up seems to do that fairly consistently.

The other half of the self defense shoots are where penetration and shot placement are important - more important than the cartridge you use, as all handgun calibers are ineffective at actually "stopping" people if they are not inclined to be stopped.

People also confuse "lethal" wounds with "rapid incapacitation". If Someone gets shot 10 times in torso with a .22LR, they are probably not going to survive as the large number of wound tracks will do a lot of cumulative damage to a lot of separate systems and it's very hard for a surgeon to fix the resulting damage, with the result that the patient will die hours, or days later.

However that person will probably be combat effective for at least several minutes after being shot and will usually survive to reach the OR, rather than bleed out.

Rapid incapacitation requires that you either get a CNS hit (brain or upper spine) that shuts down the central nervous system immediately, or a cardio pulmonary hit in the heart or large blood vessels above the heart, which will rapidly reduce the blood pressure, and cause a loss of consciousness. But that will still take 10-15 seconds minimum, and 10-15 seconds can be a very long time if someone is shooting at you.

Hitting someone in a blood bearing organ like the liver will also cause them to bleed out fairly quickly, but it's more like minutes than seconds and may not be soon enough to save your life in a self defense situation.

----

Pain is different and far less predictable.


At one extreme, my dad managed to shoot himself when his Model 92 in .32-20 slipped off the tractor he was driving with the hammer striking the axel on the way down, shearing the sear and causing it to discharge. It hit him in the bottom rib on the on the front left side and exited out his back high on the shoulder blade. Despite the hole in his lung, broken rib and shoulder damage he walked a mile and half home, then had to be driven about 20 miles to the doctor in town (1930's DIY emergency responders). He didn't feel a thing, even when the doctor was probing the wound from both sides and this was about an hour after being shot.

Other people have reported getting shot as being very painful, and i suspect it comes down to factors like where you got shot, individual pain tolerance, adrenaline, and the terminal effects of the bullet that may differ based on velocity of the round, etc.
 
  1. Police have no legal duty to protect individuals.
  2. Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
  3. Police not assigned as bodyguards have no physical ability to protect individuals.
You either protect yourself or you don't get protected at all.

I don't consider being interviewed in the hospital... or having my corpse photographed at the crime scene optimal responses to an attempted robbery or murder.

There seem to be a few people who are more than willing to trust in the good judgment and basic human decency of strongarm robbers. I'm not one of them. I'm either going to protect MYSELF, or a bunch of cops are going to stand around my body trading witty banter while waiting for somebody to pick up the corpse.
 
You lost me around the 7th paragraph and I gave up because even after reading that far I had no idea where you were going with it.

What he said.

I'm an old fart

I'd like to be an older fart

Hence, I carry a gun
 
As long as there are handguns and EDC, (Which might not be much longer, depending on who's sworn in next January), there will be the ongoing brand/caliber controversies. Me? I don't want to take a hit from any round, be it a 22 short or 500 S&W.
 
I am probably as guilty of being long-winded as anyone here but even by my standards that was quite a lecture! :D

Well, I agree with a lot of what you said. Lightweight, simple, and compact are pretty good attributes in a lot of things. But I think rather than heading the direction of the little .22 magnum Derringer I would probably go the other way - towards a .45 Commander - though I certainly agree that guns like the 9mm Shield provide a sensible starting point, as do the J-frame .38s.
 
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You lost me around the 7th paragraph and I gave up because even after reading that far I had no idea where you were going with it.

Came expecting an interesting discussion of all the non-gun things involved in the armed lifestyle.

Got a personal manifesto instead.

Left disappointed.
 
Statistically speaking about half of all stops in self defense shoots are psychological stops where the person gets shot, decides that really sucks and stops doing what ever they are doing that is getting them shot to avoid getting shot again. For the half, the caliber just needs to have enough punch to make it clear the person got shot. The .22 LR and .25 ACP don't reliably get that done but everything from .32 ACP on up seems to do that fairly consistently.

The other half of the self defense shoots are where penetration and shot placement are important - more important than the cartridge you use, as all handgun calibers are ineffective at actually "stopping" people if they are not inclined to be stopped.

People also confuse "lethal" wounds with "rapid incapacitation". If Someone gets shot 10 times in torso with a .22LR, they are probably not going to survive as the large number of wound tracks will do a lot of cumulative damage to a lot of separate systems and it's very hard for a surgeon to fix the resulting damage, with the result that the patient will die hours, or days later.

However that person will probably be combat effective for at least several minutes after being shot and will usually survive to reach the OR, rather than bleed out.

Rapid incapacitation requires that you either get a CNS hit (brain or upper spine) that shuts down the central nervous system immediately, or a cardio pulmonary hit in the heart or large blood vessels above the heart, which will rapidly reduce the blood pressure, and cause a loss of consciousness. But that will still take 10-15 seconds minimum, and 10-15 seconds can be a very long time if someone is shooting at you.

Hitting someone in a blood bearing organ like the liver will also cause them to bleed out fairly quickly, but it's more like minutes than seconds and may not be soon enough to save your life in a self defense situation.

----

Pain is different and far less predictable.


At one extreme, my dad managed to shoot himself when his Model 92 in .32-20 slipped off the tractor he was driving with the hammer striking the axel on the way down, shearing the sear and causing it to discharge. It hit him in the bottom rib on the on the front left side and exited out his back high on the shoulder blade. Despite the hole in his lung, broken rib and shoulder damage he walked a mile and half home, then had to be driven about 20 miles to the doctor in town (1930's DIY emergency responders). He didn't feel a thing, even when the doctor was probing the wound from both sides and this was about an hour after being shot.

Other people have reported getting shot as being very painful, and i suspect it comes down to factors like where you got shot, individual pain tolerance, adrenaline, and the terminal effects of the bullet that may differ based on velocity of the round, etc.

Some time ago I did an impromptu and "unscientific" survey. I picked 100 random cases of reported violence (or attempted violence) against armed citizens. The results were these:
In 95% of the cases the mere "presence" of a gun - once known, caused the threat to flee. The majority of people don't care to be shot - even by a .22. Flee is the option of choice.

In 4% of the cases the threat, once shot , ceased it's behavior and fled or at least attempted to.

Only 1% were represented by the hoped up doper that some seem to think are so prevalent.

So yes, train to prepare for the 1%, but realize that in any REAL defensive encounter most likely no shots will be fired.
 
FWIW The OP hasn't logged back in since 2 minutes after he posted this thread
 
The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that pain will stop an assailant. Considering the poor stopping and killing rate of handguns on men, I wouldn't rely on their ability to cause pain to do much of anything for me. While I carry 9mm handguns at times, I would never stop shooting until I was sure the attacker was down for good. One round almost never does it with a 9mm. A "dead" man can shoot you as well as one that hasn't been shot.

If you read a bunch of reports about self defense uses of handguns you will notice 3 things:
1) Most often the mere presentation of a handgun causes the assailant to flee. Why? I guess, because they don't want to get shot!

2) In the instances where shots ARE fired - and find their mark, the assailant MOST OFTEN flees...or at least tries too, unless their wounds are too severe.

3) In a few, and I mean VERY few instances, the assailant, once shot continues to press their attack. These are by FAR the minority of occurrences.

The "hoped up" attacker, though he exist, is far less prevalent than some would cause you to think. Be prepared, but not too concerned.


While I carry 9mm handguns at times, I would never stop shooting until I was sure the attacker was down for good.

Most instructors teach to shoot until the threat ceases to be one.
 
FWIW The OP hasn't logged back in since 2 minutes after he posted this thread

Well, that sure raises some red flags, now doesn't it?
shocked.gif
What do you think he's up to?
think.gif
Maybe he's some kind of spy.
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Doesn't look like he's ever logged back in since then either.?????

Uh-oh. Something funny going on here. Hey, but what if he's one of those weird guys who don't spend eighteen hours a day pounding a keyboard on gun forums?

Or maybe he's a real slow typer, and he's still working on his response even as we speak? Hey, it could happen.
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It's just sort of an overlong and empty post. There's no question, no point of controversy to rage over, nothing new or insightful, and no new knowledge.

So nothing cosmically wrong, just not an example of super-great posting.
 
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