Buffalo Bore introduces .38 Spl.+P Outdoorsman (Keith Load..with .38-44 velocities)

[Doug.38PR]

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

AHHHH. Check this out. They even put it through a 1958 S&W Combat Masterpiece to demonstrate it is OK in older guns.

Thing of it is, now that I am into reloading....I'll bet this can easily (and inexpensively) be duplicated (as I think several in here have done already)

 

[Dave T]

This appears to be a solid version of their 38 Special+P 158g SWCHP-GC. I've shot that one in both a 5" HD and 4" and it runs between 1140 to 1160 fps. That's almost exactly what this "Outdoorsman" load does...and yes, you can duplicate it with around 12g of 2400.

Dave

 

[Doug.38PR]

my Speer and Hornandy manuels don't include 2400 in their .38 Spl.+P loading data. The hottest they have listed is Power Pistol. In fact, the Speer seems to be very careful in keeping the velocity of their bullets below or right at 1000 ft per second.
The Hornandy Manuel is even more conservative than that. I've spotted maximum loads in that for other ammo that is well below Speer's recommended STARTING load.

 

[lazy]

This appears to be a solid version of their 38 Special+P 158g SWCHP-GC. I've shot that one in both a 5" HD and 4" and it runs between 1140 to 1160 fps. That's almost exactly what this "Outdoorsman" load does...and yes, you can duplicate it with around 12g of 2400.

Dave

In a .38 case?
I have put 13, 14, 15 grains of 2400 in a .357 case, and that has one heck of a recoil.

 

[lazy]

My Alliant reloaders guid has only one listing in .38.
200 LRN, 7.1 grains of 2400 doing 890 fps out of a 5.6 barrel.

 

[tops]

In a .38 case?
I have put 13, 14, 15 grains of 2400 in a .357 case, and that has one heck of a recoil.

I have a Lyman book that list 12.5 grs. 2400, 158 gr. bul. at 1240 fps. in a .38 spec. case. I load 12 grs. 2400, 158 gr. bul. at 1194 fps. out of a 6 in. barrel using a .38 spec. case. Larry

 

[kennyb]

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

AHHHH. Check this out. They even put it through a 1958 S&W Combat Masterpiece to demonstrate it is OK in older guns.

Thing of it is, now that I am into reloading....I'll bet this can easily (and inexpensively) be duplicated (as I think several in here have done already)

reloading sure makes things easier huh doug?you get what you want..when you want it..best of luck!

 

[Texas Star]

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

AHHHH. Check this out. They even put it through a 1958 S&W Combat Masterpiece to demonstrate it is OK in older guns.

Thing of it is, now that I am into reloading....I'll bet this can easily (and inexpensively) be duplicated (as I think several in here have done already)

Handloaders have duped this load for years. The great news here is that non-reloaders can now buy it. I think it will be really good for the needs outlined.

Their equivalent to the old FBI round with a gas check to preclude leading also looks good, as does the non Plus P version, sans gas check.

I think I'll try to fit some of that ammo into my budget. It's hardly cheap, but it looks good. It may be one of those fortuitous cases in which you really do get what you pay for.

The issue that I do see is that although it is safe to fire in .38's, even older ones from a certain point, it is hotter, and will accelerate wear. But for occasional use when the hot ammo is warranted, it's probably ideal.

Hot .38 ammo is like eating chocolate: the docs now say that it contains valuable flavonoids that are heart-healthy, but that excessive consumption elevates the fat aspect, so it's best eaten in moderation.

 

[David LaPell]

170 grain Lyman #358429 cast bullet with 12.5 grains of 2400 out of my 6 1/2 inch Outdoorsman travels at about 1,210 fps. Recoil isn't that bad oddly enough.

 

[Jack Flash]

That is a positive step, but as the OP says, you can roll your own for less money.

Funny, I used to figure I could put together decent .38 Special rounds for around ten cents each, using brass I scrounged, bulk bullets, bulk primers, and being miserly with the powder. Factory ammo ran about $8 a box at the time so the savings wasn't all that much.

I'm not as miserly as I was then so rounds cost more like a quarter or so each these days. But since the cost of factory ammo has skyrocketed, the savings is much more.

The point is that reloading makes more sense now than ever before.

 

[Art Doc]

As I have said many times, the hype and fear regarding "+P" with a 125 at 925 is ridiculous. The 38/44 load is hugely more powerful and has been shot through K Frames for decades without incident.

I have reloading manuals from 1970-73 that include loads to duplicate the 38/44 round and none have any warnings about not using them in any particular gun.

 

[mooshoo]

out of my 4'' heavy duty with rainier 158 jhp copper plated bullets and 12.0 gr.2400 powder and remington small rifle match primers, over the chrony runs anywhere between 1075 fps to 1130 of fps. The cases fall out the chambers!!! very addicting!!!

 

[Doug.38PR]

are there any CURRENT reloading manuels that include loading data for 2400 that allows for 12.5 grains?

 

[Dave T]

out of my 4'' heavy duty with rainier 158 jhp copper plated bullets and 12.0 gr.2400 powder and remington small rifle match primers, over the chrony runs anywhere between 1075 fps to 1130 of fps. The cases fall out the chambers!!! very addicting!!!

Not trying to start an argument but I'm curious why you use small rifle primers in the 38 Special? I've never had a problem with standard small pistol primers and 38/44 loads with 2400.

Dave

 

[mooshoo]

I started with remington small pistol primers and noticed that it would pierce the primer knew it wasn't pressure the case's would fall out of the chamber's. read in this forum that someone said you could use mag or small rifle and I have a bunch of small rifle match primers, loaded a few up and they worked great no more pierced primers, cases fell out of the chambers no signs of high pressure

 

[sheriffoconee]

This appears to be a solid version of their 38 Special+P 158g SWCHP-GC. I've shot that one in both a 5" HD and 4" and it runs between 1140 to 1160 fps. That's almost exactly what this "Outdoorsman" load does...and yes, you can duplicate it with around 12g of 2400.

Dave

This load has been around for years....I doubt you are going to find it in a "modern" reloading manual...

 

[Doug.38PR]

I has been recommended that you change reloading manuels often as powders change on the market over time. I.E. Unique powder produced today is not what it was 30 years ago.

So it brings into question whether using 2400 powder today with loading data from 30 years ago is safe.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I have a Lyman book that list 12.5 grs. 2400, 158 gr. bul. at 1240 fps. in a .38 spec. case. I load 12 grs. 2400, 158 gr. bul. at 1194 fps. out of a 6 in. barrel using a .38 spec. case. Larry

are those jacketed/semi-jacketed bullets or lead bullets? I looked at the 49th edition of Lyman in the store today and they don't even list lead bullets, just jacketed

 

[Oyeboteb]

Indeed, the 1930s 'Heavy Duty' or '.38-44' Loads for .38 Special, were running 158 Grain Lead and around 1200 FPS.

The FBI at the time used it in their Colt Police Positive Special Revolvers, and, S & W and Colt both advertised their ordinary mid-frame Revolvers as accepting that Loading without worry.

So, when, in 1935 or so, when the .S&W .357 Magnum made it's debut...I wonder how those already familiar with the .38 Heavy Duty or .38-44 Cartridges felt about it?

One would have to suppose that the .357 Magnum Revolver as such would endure more rounds of such loadings, than an 'M&P' would...but, for private SD carry or LEO Duty carry and only some rare practice rounds with that Loading, I doubt many folks who had been familiar with the HD/38-44 Cartridges felt the need to run out and purchase the .357 at that time.

 

[Texas Star]

Indeed, the 1930s 'Heavy Duty' or '.38-44' Loads for .38 Special, were running 158 Grain Lead and around 1200 FPS.

The FBI at the time used it in their Colt Police Positive Special Revolvers, and, S & W and Colt both advertised their ordinary mid-frame Revolvers as accepting that Loading without worry.

So, when, in 1935 or so, when the .S&W .357 Magnum made it's debut...I wonder how those already familiar with the .38 Heavy Duty or .38-44 Cartridges felt about it?

One would have to suppose that the .357 Magnum Revolver as such would endure more rounds of such loadings, than an 'M&P' would...but, for private SD carry or LEO Duty carry and only some rare practice rounds with that Loading, I doubt many folks who had been familiar with the HD/38-44 Cartridges felt the need to run out and purchase the .357 at that time.

The FBI issued the Colt Official Police. If they ever officially issued the smaller Police Positive Special, I have never seen a reference to it.

That does not mean that some agents may not have privately purchased the smaller model, and some carried the snub version, the Detective Special.

Colt did at one time "list" the PPS for the Hi-Velocity load, but I think it just meant they were safe to fire with that ammo. By the 1970's, Colt was advising that their steel guns that size were due for factory inspection after just 3,000 rounds of modern Plus P, which is milder.

See my earlier post in this topic for what S&W sales manager Fred Miller told me about using .38-44 ammo in the Model 10. Using it in earlier M&P guns seems even less wise.

I do realize that you are saying that some probably fired just a few .38-44's in guns not intended for them and got away with it. I'm sure that happened.