BUFFALO BORE .38 SPECIAL VS .357 MAGNUM FROM A SNUBBY

[chief38]

Colt SAA:

The Remington 158 grain Magnums were in the yellow and green box and the 158 grain Federal Magnums were in the silver and blue box. Neither one was promo or bargain ammo.

When I did the Chronographing I did so for my own interest and had no intention of posting results on this or any other Forum at that time. I was just out at the Range testing Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P's against the 158 grain .357 Magnum ammo I had on hand. The shortest barrel I had available that was capable of firing Magnums was a 2.5" M66 and so that is what I used. Again I was not initially setting out to prove anything and so I was not all that "scientific" about it. This was an informal test that I repeated a few weeks later just for verification to myself.

By the way...... months later I also Chronographed Buffalo Bore .357 Magnums out of the same gun and they were quite a bit faster (grain weight to grain weight). I never saved any paperwork, but IIRC out of the 2.5" M66 the 158 grain BB Mag. did just under 1400 fps and out of my 3" M65 over 1400. I also tested their 180 grain Mag. Hard Cast load and that chonographed at well over 1300 fps from the 3" M65. While these are impressive velocities I only carry the 180 grain in my M65 when hiking through Bear Country. The 158 JHP BB I don't even carry. They are both very very stout out of a 3" K Frame - to say the least and I would also be afraid of over penetration on two legged animals.

Had I set out to do a Magazine article or purposely tested to do a post here I would have been more methodical or actually video'd the entire test, but again that was not my intention. I only wanted to pass on what I have found for some who might be thinking of using Magnum loads in a 2" CCW gun. That's it.

Just to re-address the recoil statement I made, all I can tell you is that I can fire the BB 158 grain 38 Special HEAVY +P LSWCHP-GC many times with no problem in the 2.5" M66 where as when the Magnum loads were fired they had much more recoil, muzzle blast, muzzle flash and noise levels. Bullet weights were the same, however the bullet types are different. BB 38's are Lead whereas the magnums were SJHP. The Magnum cases are about 1/8" longer and the powders and burn rates are different. I also recall that lead bullets have better lubricity while copper bullets create greater resistance and friction requiring more powder to push them at the same speed as an identical weight lead bullet = greater recoil.

Anyway, that's how it turned out for me.

Chief38

 

[Otreb]

It's not the first time I've heard of similar performing rounds having different recoil 'feel'.
.357 is still operating at nearly twice the pressure as .38sp and burning quite a bit more powder which is also driven down the barrel with its 158gr payload...so at same velocities it might still have more recoil.
I won't pretend to have an absolute grip on the physics involved, but that powder may turn to gas along the way, but there's more of it at higher pressure than .38sp, even if it only gets the slug to within 40fps of the BB load.

 

[Pointblank2U]

Here is an example of Buffalo Bore FAIL from a person I consider trustworthy and competent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvVNtKicux4

The late Stephen A. Camp compared .357 Magnum and .38 Special out of a snub nose on his website (it's still up) and found the .357s were indeed more effective, even out of a short barrel:

New Page 1

 

[JohnHancock]

The above clip is exactly why my EDC is the +p version. Factor accurate 1000 fps and bone into the equation and you've got a good carry load.

 

[model 19/39]

38 or 357

I only own one "snub", a three inch barrel model 19 Kcomp from the Performance Center and I have fired both +p 38's and 125 grain 357's from Hornady, Remington, Buffalo Bore, Speer and an older "medium velocity" Remington load through it. The Buffalo Bore 38 +p load was pleasant to shoot, but also found the 357 Buffalo Bore (low flash/recoil load) and the Speer load comparable in felt recoil Bore with the Hornady and older Remington load a slight increase but still not unpleasant. The current Remington load IMHO was not pleasant with sharp recoil. However, as numerous have stated, everyone's perception of recoil is different and everyone has a favorite. Ain't right, ain't wrong it is just how they feel. The main thing is their confidence in their personal choice in what they choose to carry. I chose Buffalo Bore 158 +p for my model 15's and my wife chose it for her model 14 and Buffalo Bore 125 357 low flash for my model 19's based on those informal tests and videos showing testing in various media for penetration and expansion. And the fact that Buffalo Bore's velocity figures are arrived at utilizing actual weapons not test barrels. Please let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[one eye joe]

I DON'T THINK THAT YOU CAN GO WRONG WITH BUFFALO BORE AMMO, model 19/39. THEIR ADVERTISED VELOCITIES SEEM TO BE BORNE OUT BY TESTING, AND THEY ALL PERFORM WELL IN MEDIA. THE FACT THAT YOU BOTH ARE COMFORTABLE, AND CONFIDENT IN YOUR CHOICES IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING…...

 

[Otreb]

Here is an example of Buffalo Bore FAIL from a person I consider trustworthy and competent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvVNtKicux4

The late Stephen A. Camp compared .357 Magnum and .38 Special out of a snub nose on his website (it's still up) and found the .357s were indeed more effective, even out of a short barrel:

New Page 1

18-19" of penetration and .43 cal expansion in worst case four layers of denim a 'fail' ?
I'd be really happy with that.

 

[CherryRiver]

I just stumbled across this old thread while fooling around looking for some Buffalo Bore 20A/20 158s.
Long ago, when I first discovered them (and got over the shock of the price) I bought a couple boxes and chronoed them.
First up was a battered 4" Colt Official Police from 1955. I could not believe the chrono's readout: the average was about 1020fps. That's solidly into light .357 Magnum territory, and in that gun was pleasant to shoot.
Then I stoked the 2" Detective Special and got about 930fps! I was stunned. With decent lumber on the handles, it's quite controllable.
At the time I had a Colt Magnum Carry .357, a 2" stainless DS. It also so happened that I built a large darkhouse on one of the club's outdoor ranges to run IDPA and other stages in (a fascinating exercise all by itself!). I ran off a cylinder full of 158gr Gold Dot .357s in there as if I was shooting the stage.
The flash was unbelievable and the recoil, even in the relatively heavy and comfortable Colt with Pach grips, was unmanageable in any practical sense.
Since that time, all of my .38/.357 carry guns have had the Buffalo Bore 158s in the chambers, and I've never put a .357 in a short gun again.

 

[rwsmith]

Point being....

So, to keep apple-to-apple comparisons of ammunition, a person can rule out those variables by using the same snubby, with the same grip & stance, fired by the same person.

If I'm comparing how different ammunition reacts (recoils) in my 340, and that's the only gun I use to compare them, all of the other possible variables are gone. Right?

Manufacturers claims, test results, what I clock in my gun and what Joe Blow clocked out of his gun may not be close to the results you get with any ONE gun. But knowing how that one gun performs is more important to you that what anybody else gets, including the manufacturer.

 

[chief38]

I have to disagree with this. The recoil part, anyway.

A 158gr magnum, at less than 1000fps, isn't gonna beat up a gun any worse than a 158gr special going 1040fps. In fact, it is less. The recoil is also gonna be less. Newton's Third Law tell us this.

And I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. A lot of perceived recoil has to do with the type and burn speed of the powder being used. Just because two different cartridges shoots the same weight projectile does not mean that everything else is equal.

The idea of edging close to a "perfect bullet" is one that is specifically designed to burn it's powder charge within the confines of a barrel and to accelerate the projectile. Any powder burned outside the confines of the barrel causes muzzle flash, blast and recoil that does nothing to propel the bullet.

Powders have different burn rates and different burn temperatures. Each one produces different pressures, temps, and recoil within the same barrel length and therefore there are some that simply work better than others for specific length barrels.

The .357 magnum is a terrific cartridge and is very hard to beat in a 6" or greater barreled Revolver, but when you shoot them from a J frame sized Revolver with a 1 7/8" barrel it greatly upsets the "apple cart" and is no longer doing what it was originally designed to do.

Had I never chronographed different loads and cartridges from 2" J Frames I would not have known this either. We all read many things in magazines, on-line and in Youtube videos, but its NOT quite the same as when you do the actual table top testing yourself and come up with the same results time after time. AGAIN....... I was specifically talking the BB HEAVY 158 grain +P 38 Special vs commonly available 158 grain .357's from Rem. Win & Fed. Just thought some would like to know what Mr. Chronograph had to say - and a Chronograph has no stake in ammunition sales.

 

[andyo5]

I've tried the BB FBI load in my J frames and found follow up shots very slow and difficult to get back on target. It's good stuff but a bit stout for me. I'll stick w/the Remington or similar +P load, it's just easier for me to handle, big boy pants not withstanding.

I recently tested some BB 38+P LSCW rounds in my 340, as compared to some +P JHP and non+P lead rounds. I have previously fired 357 loads from an airweight snubby so I know how it feels.
I found the BB load to recoil almost as much as the 357s I had fired.So follow up shots would be slower than with less powerful loads. But the accuracy of that load was astounding, whether off bags or off hand. I did not notice excessive flash from the BB load.
My chronograph is currently packed away in a storage locker, so I can't comment on velocity.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Cheif38;

One thing about the "Factory" 158gr magnum if from Federal or Speer and maybe the others............out of a 2" barrel.

I saw two test with denim and Gel blocks with the heavy 158gr JHP bullets that are designed to open up............
They penetrated 18.75" and 22" in those test.
One did not mushroom due to the low fps of that one round and I would give it two thumbs down for SD use.

However if those JHP were just used to show fps out of a 2" vs a lead 158 gr bullet................. that works.

 

[Naphtali]

Not having used 357 Magnum ammunition in my 640, I cannot confirm its degree of difficulty for extracting brass. I use the Remington 38 Special "FBI Load" of 158-grain lead SWC-HP.

I considered using BB's steroid-enhanced version that appears to yield mild 357 Magnum ballistics, but its price is kind've off-putting. However, Blazer (CCI) offers a 158-grain JHP at similarly mild 357 Magnum ballistics. It may be worth a try because its cost is about 33 percent of Buffalo Bore's ammunition.

What needs examination when trying Blazer's version?
- Does the bullet penetrate AND expand as you prefer on test media you use?

- How unpleasant is the muzzle flash and blast?

- Is recoil something you can tolerate?

- Aluminum cases are reputed to be easier to extract than brass. Can your revolver extract AND eject cases for whatever speed loading you prefer despite Blazer's Aluminum case being longer than 38 Specials?
***
At its price, I'll be trying it out this spring.

 

[andyo5]

Not having used 357 Magnum ammunition in my 640, I cannot confirm its degree of difficulty for extracting brass. I use the Remington 38 Special "FBI Load" of 158-grain lead SWC-HP.

None of the brass in any of these versions is hard to extract.
It's just SAAMI spec ammunition. It isn't overcharged.

 

[Naphtali]

None of the brass in any of these versions is hard to extract.
It's just SAAMI spec ammunition. It isn't overcharged.

The 357's difficulty, I am informed, is with the additional case length coupled with shorter extractor rods. Possibly, the alleged ease of extracting Aluminum cases may make some difference in this instance.

 

[Texas Star]

Just to throw in some additional thought, I bet that BB heavy Plus P .38 round makes a lot of sense in service type revolvers with four inch and longer barrels, and in Ruger's three-inch bbl. .357 SP-101.

The thing is loaded as hot as the old .38-44 round, with bullets a lot more likely to expand.

Has anyone here clocked it in these longer barrels?