BUFFALO BORE .38 SPECIAL VS .357 MAGNUM FROM A SNUBBY

[Otreb]

I'm going to start a new thread- - how many of you have fired full house .357 Magnum rounds through a 2" revolver and will you ever do it again and would you carry that for self defense?

Okay, I admit my 2.5" M686+ and my 2.5" M19 handle .357 Magnum rounds just fine but, still, I did that just to "see" how they handled the magnum rounds - I'd never make a steady diet of them, even in the 686, and I certainly don't use magnum rounds in those guns for SD and the 686 is ALWAYS at my bedside.

I could go on - it's a personal pet peeve of mine - how many folks stoke up their little guns with magnum rounds and without realizing the tradeoffs in flame, recoil, inability to get off the second round, etc. I feel the same way about +P rounds in my snubby Airweights. It's a total waste.

***GRJ***

It's like anything, ask 10 people get ten different opinions.
In a gun like the ti/scandium J frames, no way I'm using any .357mag. In a 17oz Ruger LCR....maybe. Also, not all +p .38sp loads are the same...some are actually more like '-p' using lightweight bullets at weak std vel performance....in fact I can't even believe the +p Critical Defense 110gr is actually '+' anything. The Buffalo Bore is a top end load, and heavy recoil in an Airweight, but a +p 135gr Gold Dot isn't bad at all in my 442.
Hand the gun to my Stepmother, completely different picture. She barely tolerates std pressure .38 in a Colt Trooper.
Some people can manage those tradeoffs to a point of being able to shoot fine one handed, others can't and move down the power scale.

 

[Matt C.]

FBI load

I've tried the BB FBI load in my J frames and found follow up shots very slow and difficult to get back on target. It's good stuff but a bit stout for me. I'll stick w/the Remington or similar +P load, it's just easier for me to handle, big boy pants not withstanding.

I believe the BB offering that duplicates the original FBI load is the

20C/20 Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy 38 Spl.
(non +P)
LSWCHP 158gr. @ 850 fps.

Easy follow ups with deep penetration.

 

[shil]

Anyone ever test if the muzzle flash of a full-throttle .357 out of 2" barrel will set fire to clothing?

 

[Hapworth]

I believe the BB offering that duplicates the original FBI load is the

20C/20 Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy 38 Spl.
(non +P)
LSWCHP 158gr. @ 850 fps.

Easy follow ups with deep penetration.

That's correct; their +P version of the same load surpasses the FBI load in velocity, energy, recoil, etc.

Anyone looking for a version of the old FBI load should pick BB's standard power.

 

[CoMF]

The first part of your statement is true, however the latter part is not:

.38 Snub Vs. .357 Snub

Call me Mr. Understatement.

Yes, a difference of ~200-300 FPS isn't exactly "modest." The late Mr. Camp states, however, that the tradeoffs for that extra velocity aren't necessarily desirable to all shooters, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

Speaking from personal experience, it doesn't take a pair of big boy pants to admit that a M19 snub wearing Ahrends stocks and stoked with full house magnums is difficult to do anything meaningful with.

 

[westy39]

Wow, there is a lot of discussion on this topic. I for one like to shoot magnum loads out of my snubbie. I like the recoil and muzzle flash but that is just me. I also find that by shooting my snubbies I become a better shot with so called normal length barrels. This,,,, boys and girls is why various handgun companies build a variety of gun barrel lengths on various handguns. Life is too short to limit ones self to a single handgun. Just my thoughts from the Big Sky Country.

 

[Kifaru]

There is some good discussion here. In a self defense load, I think most of us tend to forget that we are not looking for maximum muzzle velocity; we are merely looking for enough velocity. We need enough velocity to get the bullet, the actual projectile, to perform as designed. That is to penetrate deeply enough to reach something that the human organism needs to immediately function and to do enough damage to that something once it gets there. Anything extra is, well, extra: extra flash, extra recoil, extra report--all extraneous. And there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of velocity as it relates to terminal performance for most defensive bullets, JHPs in particular.

I'm not recoil shy, and felt recoil is indeed subjective. But I decided to apply some objective standards to felt recoil just for grins. I put a bullseye target at 7 yards and put fresh batteries in the shot timer to see if there truly is as little difference as my hand and my ego were telling me. I raided my ammo cabinet for all the odds and ends I could scrounge up and timed myself. Long story short, with a 2 1/2" model 19-8, there was a substantial difference in time between +P .38 Special and .357 magnum in every load combination I could dream up (averaging nearly 40% more time for the .357). After the first couple pairings of 5 rounds each, I pushed the .357 strings to get the times down, but then the group sizes opened up considerably (not only out of the black, but off the target entirely for a shot or two per string). I tried a few of the pairings with a 3" model 686 with only slightly less pronounced results. I can only assume the results with an AirLite J-frame. With my ammo supply running low and the thumb joint in my palm starting to throb, I called it a day.

Conclusions? For me anyway, there is a difference in controllability, probably enough to make a difference in a self-defense scenario if what they say is true, "in a real-life shooting, you will shoot half as well as your worst day on the range." It looks like I'm sticking with +P .38 Special for now.

Someday, I'd like to revisit this test with more ammo, some chronograph testing, a few more shooters, and maybe some gelatin testing too.

 

[drummer007]

Another point in favor of using a +P 38 Special rather than a 357 mag out of a snubbie is the short ejector rod on most snubbies and its effect on a reload. I find the fired 38 Special cases come out of the cylinder much more reliably with the muzzle pointed skyward and a smart hand smack on the ejector rod. For me, one or two of the fired 357 mag cases tend to hang in the cylinder when doing the same reload stroke. This is true for me for both short barreled J frames and short barreled K frames.

The Buffalo Bore +P 158 LSWCHP-GC 38 Special is my carry ammo. Numerous online video gel tests of it show deep penetration and expansion to between 0.60" and 0.70" . Good enough for me !

 

[BigMoneyGrip]

From my actual chronograph testing (M66 2.5" bbl.) I have found that the actual muzzle velocity of the BB +P .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP-GC is a very consistent 1040 fps while 158 grain .357 JHP Magnums from Remington and Winchester were below the 1000 fps mark out of the same gun. The BB load has almost no muzzle flash while the Magnum's is huge. The recoil from the Magnum is a whole lot greater than the .38 Special and the beating a small J or K frame takes from a Magnum load is a whole lot more than a .38 Special. Accuracy and follow up shots also suffer greatly with the Magnum load, as does the pain in your hands from shooting them. Night blindness from Magnums is also a concern here.

I have to disagree with this. The recoil part, anyway.

A 158gr magnum, at less than 1000fps, isn't gonna beat up a gun any worse than a 158gr special going 1040fps. In fact, it is less. The recoil is also gonna be less. Newton's Third Law tell us this.

 

[shouldazagged]

Chief38 did some chronographing comparing the Buffalo Bore standard-pressure .38 Special LSWCHP-GC with the new Remington version of the FBI load. He found that the new Remington stuff clocked significantly slower than the BB. The difference from the good older Remington stuff, which I carried for years and which had an excellent track record for effectiveness in shootings on the street, was considerable.

The arthritis in my hands precludes my shooting .357 Magnum loads even in an all-steel J-frame with Pachmayr Compacs. I'm pretty sure I would have some controllability and second-shot problems with the Buffalo Bore Heavy. Since the standard-pressure BB is essentially identical to the good older Remington FBI load, with less flash, it's what I load in my EDC and HD guns.

I'm old and beat up. I hung up my Big Boy pants several years ago--never really felt the need to prove anything anyway. I pray I never have to use a gun to defend my life; but if I should be forced to do that I want to use a gun I can control with ammo I trust.

 

[colt_saa]

If your CCW is a 2" snub-nose Revolver it is my personal opinion that it would make a lot more sense to carry Buffalo Bore HEAVY .38 Special +P LSWCHP-GC (or similar) loads than a 158 grain (I am discounting 125 grain Mag's due to the fact that they cause havoc with flame cutting and accelerated wear on small revolvers) .357 Magnum load from the "Big Three" manufacturers

From my actual chronograph testing (M66 2.5" bbl.) I have found that the actual muzzle velocity of the BB +P .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP-GC is a very consistent 1040 fps while 158 grain .357 JHP Magnums from Remington and Winchester were below the 1000 fps mark out of the same gun. The BB load has almost no muzzle flash while the Magnum's is huge. The recoil from the Magnum is a whole lot greater than the .38 Special and the beating a small J or K frame takes from a Magnum load is a whole lot more than a .38 Special. Accuracy and follow up shots also suffer greatly with the Magnum load, as does the pain in your hands from shooting them. Night blindness from Magnums is also a concern here.


Respectfully,
Chief38

Chief38,
I do not think a single member of this Forum is surprised that you do not like 357Magnum

You appear to have put together a pseudo test to support your stand.

I find it very suspect that you specifically mention the BB load that you are using (and like) in your test and even give us the velocity measured from your 2 1/2" barrel (interesting choice since your premise is about 2" firearms)

However when it comes to the loads that you are trying to disprove (the ones you dislike) you fail to tell us which ammunition you are using outside of the manufacturer and you do not provide chronograph results. I do not consider the statement "below the 1000 fps mark" to be experimental data, I do consider "very consistent 1040 fps" to be a better example of measured data.

I have chronographed the Hornady 125XTP (90502), Remington 158JSP (R357M3) and the old 180 Winchester Black Talons (added in because we had some) from one of our 2 1/2" model 66s. My results are much different than yours.

Each different loading was fired in 5 round strings, 3 strings were shot. The average of the 15 shots is what we recorded. Measurements of the 15 shots were taken with an Ohler model 43 chronograph as primary and two additional shots were taken on an Ohler model 33 to confirm that the results were accurate.

Hornady 125XTP yielded 1289 FPS
Remington 158JSP yielded 1196 FPS
Winchester 180BT yielded 1060 FPS

The two 38 Special loads that we were testing never made it to the chronograph stage because they had such poor weight retention in the ballistic gelatin. The pre-scored jackets that are commonly used in the lower speed ammunition to help expansion actually allowed bullet fragmentation with these two offerings.

As to the issue of "Night Blindness" I will agree that in the seventies and eighties this was a problem. Funny thing about ammunition makers, just because they designed something in 1935 for a specific barrel length or purpose does not mean that they do not learn and improve their product over time.

90%+ of all modern Premium Defensive ammunition from the Big makers contains flash suppressant. Now if you are using white/yellow/green box bargain ammo, foreign ammo and most boutique ammo do not expect the manufacturer to spend money on flash suppressant.

Not to mention of you are handloading, the powders available do not contain flash suppressant either.

Go shoot some premium ammunition in a dark indoor range, it will not be a problem. Take the cheap range ammo with you and you will see flash.

How can this statement possibly be accurate, "The recoil from the Magnum is a whole lot greater than the .38 Special."

Presuming the same firearm was used as you have stated, a 158 at "very consistent 1040 fps" will have more recoil than a 158 "below the 1000 fps mark." That is simple physics and we can calculate the amount of free recoil on the computer. What case it is in, what powder it is loaded with and what pressure it achieves can not alter the recoil.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Sort of off the subject but..........
just saw the Buffalo 9mm 115gr +P out of a 3" and the bullets
jacket left pieces all through the Gel and it did not pass the test.
Looked like a Sierra but bullet type was mot mentioned on the site.

You might want to test that or any load in media before you accept it as a SD load.
I had a Speer 125gr GD not open up in a test in my M49 .38 snub nose. You never know what is going to happen.

FPS is KING.............. for SD loads.
Anything that clears the muzzle is great for target work.

 

[claudel]

I'm going to start a new thread- - how many of you have fired full house .357 Magnum rounds through a 2" revolver and will you ever do it again and would you carry that for self defense?

<snip>

I've tried a variety of different commercial .357/.38 loadings in my 649-3 and this is what I've come up with so far.

No chrono or other scientific stuff, just another subjective opinion.

As far as .38 for other than blasting away at paper the BB standard pressure 20C seems to work well for me.

It shoots to point of aim relatively consistently for me and isn't overpowering as far as muzzle blast & recoil.

Tests and anecdotes tell me this is an adequate SD round and is relatively pleasant to shoot.

I keep this in the gun for EDC and under the pillow...

My favorite .357 load is the Corbon 125G DPX.

There are stouter loads, but in a snub it seems as if one just gets more muzzle blast with them.

It is extremely consistent and shoots to POA better than any of the other loads that I have tried in my "J"

It's also quite a handful for me, even in a heavy steel snubby with rubbers.

I've tried a box or two of most every load I could find and that's my conclusions, YMMV.

I keep the BB .38s in it for the sake of not permanently deafening myself in the
unlikely event that I might need to fire it indoors without ears, and a couple of speed strips
stuffed with the Corbons handy in case the zombies make it past the first five...

 

[Triathloncoach]

What about these? The manufacturer claims 1100 fps and 425 ft lbs. from a snub.

Speer also makes short barrel 357. I like the concept. But I remember having a Heck of a time trying to find this ammo.

 

[Hapworth]

Speer also makes short barrel 357. I like the concept. But I remember having a Heck of a time trying to find this ammo.

It's good stuff. Like most ammo suppliers, Speer makes it in batches; right now we're in the dry spell. It'll show up eventually -- when it does, grab it.

 

[chief38]

Chief38,
I do not think a single member of this Forum is surprised that you do not like 357Magnum

I never said I do not like the .357 Magnums! I do like them - just NOT in Snub Guns.

You appear to have put together a pseudo test to support your stand.

I did NOT do this test to "support my stand" and in fact did NOT realize that the results I actually Chronographed were even so BEFORE actually doing the test.

I find it very suspect that you specifically mention the BB load that you are using (and like) in your test and even give us the velocity measured from your 2 1/2" barrel (interesting choice since your premise is about 2" firearms)

My 2" Snubs do NOT fire .357 Magnums and so the next closest was a 2.5" M66.

However when it comes to the loads that you are trying to disprove (the ones you dislike) you fail to tell us which ammunition you are using outside of the manufacturer and you do not provide chronograph results. I do not consider the statement "below the 1000 fps mark" to be experimental data, I do consider "very consistent 1040 fps" to be a better example of measured data.

I shot some Federal and Remington 158 grain Magnums.

I have chronographed the Hornady 125XTP (90502), Remington 158JSP (R357M3) and the old 180 Winchester Black Talons (added in because we had some) from one of our 2 1/2" model 66s. My results are much different than yours.

All I can state are my results from my Shooting Chrony Chronograph. I have always found it to be accurate and consistent
and therefore believe my results are as accurate as one can expect from an outside the laboratory informal test.

Each different loading was fired in 5 round strings, 3 strings were shot. The average of the 15 shots is what we recorded. Measurements of the 15 shots were taken with an Ohler model 43 chronograph as primary and two additional shots were taken on an Ohler model 33 to confirm that the results were accurate.

Hornady 125XTP yielded 1289 FPS
Remington 158JSP yielded 1196 FPS
Winchester 180BT yielded 1060 FPS

The two 38 Special loads that we were testing never made it to the chronograph stage because they had such poor weight retention in the ballistic gelatin. The pre-scored jackets that are commonly used in the lower speed ammunition to help expansion actually allowed bullet fragmentation with these two offerings.

As to the issue of "Night Blindness" I will agree that in the seventies and eighties this was a problem. Funny thing about ammunition makers, just because they designed something in 1935 for a specific barrel length or purpose does not mean that they do not learn and improve their product over time.

90%+ of all modern Premium Defensive ammunition from the Big makers contains flash suppressant. Now if you are using white/yellow/green box bargain ammo, foreign ammo and most boutique ammo do not expect the manufacturer to spend money on flash suppressant.

Again, my Magnum ammo that I tested was Remington and Federal and it produced very large muzzle flash and would cause night blindness if fired in the dark. I will admit that the ammo I used was at least 8 or 9 years old so if those Company's have changed their powders or added a suppressor than I am unaware of this.

Not to mention of you are handloading, the powders available do not contain flash suppressant either.

Go shoot some premium ammunition in a dark indoor range, it will not be a problem. Take the cheap range ammo with you and you will see flash.

How can this statement possibly be accurate, "The recoil from the Magnum is a whole lot greater than the .38 Special.

How can it be? Because IT IS! Don't think too many here will argue that!

Presuming the same firearm was used as you have stated, a 158 at "very consistent 1040 fps" will have more recoil than a 158 "below the 1000 fps mark." That is simple physics and we can calculate the amount of free recoil on the computer. What case it is in, what powder it is loaded with and what pressure it achieves can not alter the recoil.

I am NOT a ballistics expert and I do not know what powders Company's are using, nor do you or any other hobbyist here. Different powders and different blends have different burn rates, different temperatures they burn at, and use different bullets. All I can tell you is that out of a 2.5 inch M66 the recoil from the Magnum loads, the muzzle flash and the noise levels are a lot greater than that of the BB Heavy .38 Special. This is what I have personally chronographed and experienced and have no reason to make stuff up. Quite honestly, I was surprised at the results and that is exactly why I bothered to post them here. I figured others might want to know what I have found out. If you disagree or have found different results I can not say why as I was not there.

I do not work for and I am not associated in any way shape or form with Buffalo Bore and I do NOT get one penny from them to promote their products. I am a type of person that tries to share a good product when I find one and after repeating these tests a few times I decided to post the results. YMMV

Again, I was comparing 158 grain Magnums ONLY to the BB HEAVY 38 Special +P's and NOT the lighter 125's or 110's as they are not great for the Revolvers longevity. I do realize that the 125's are much faster than the 158's, so that is not even relevant to this discussion.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[307-Niner]

Chief38, I just wanted to thank you for posting your experiences, and chrono information too. Short of purchasing every ammo possibility available, we must rely on the opinions of others & the info they can provide. It is truly appreciated.

 

[colt_saa]

I am NOT a ballistics expert and I do not know what powders Company's are using, nor do you or any other hobbyist here. Different powders and different blends have different burn rates, different temperatures they burn at, and use different bullets. All I can tell you is that out of a 2.5 inch M66 the recoil from the Magnum loads, the muzzle flash and the noise levels are a lot greater than that of the BB Heavy .38 Special. This is what I have personally chronographed and experienced and have no reason to make stuff up. Quite honestly, I was surprised at the results and that is exactly why I bothered to post them here. I figured others might want to know what I have found out. If you disagree or have found different results I can not say why as I was not there.

I do not work for and I am not associated in any way shape or form with Buffalo Bore and I do NOT get one penny from them to promote their products. I am a type of person that tries to share a good product when I find one and after repeating these tests a few times I decided to post the results. YMMV

Again, I was comparing 158 grain Magnums ONLY to the BB HEAVY 38 Special +P's and NOT the lighter 125's or 110's as they are not great for the Revolvers longevity. I do realize that the 125's are much faster than the 158's, so that is not even relevant to this discussion.

Regards,
Chief38

Chief,
It is not necessary to have any training in ballistics to understand that a 158 grain projectile leaving a firearm at 1040 will have MORE recoil than a 158 grain projectile leaving the same firearm at less than 1000.

I am surprised that you are still defending the statement that your 1040 FPS 38 has less recoil than your "below the 1000 fps mark" 357.

The Laws of Physics do not agree with your claim.

None of your fellow Forum Members have any idea what ammunition you were testing with the exception of the one you like.

Were these 8 or 9 year old examples of 357 Magnum ammunition white/yellow/green box bargain ammo? Were they the standard grade ammo? Or were these the companies Premium Defense offerings.

To compare one known item (the one you like) to several items that arenot being specifically disclosed and say that proves you should not shoot 357s in short barrels is very unfair to the ammunition makers.

Chief, I am not sure why you feel the need to make a statement defending yourself against being a shill for BB. I have not seen anyone accuse you of that. I certainly do not believe it.

Chief, You may not believe it, but we are interested in your results(myself included), but complete results. Informative enough so that we can know which two loadings (of the hundreds available) that your testing found objectionable.

You say you repeated this same test several times, but it appears that you have no real numbers for anything but the load you like. Are there no notes of what you did? I never take a chronograph out and not write down what I learned.

As to what I personally know about powder companies and what they use, your presumptions that I know nothing is off base.

 

[one eye joe]

I just wanted to post this for the new comers to the site and for some who are unaware or have never chronographed their actual loads.

If your CCW is a 2" snub-nose Revolver it is my personal opinion that it would make a lot more sense to carry Buffalo Bore HEAVY .38 Special +P LSWCHP-GC (or similar) loads than a 158 grain (I am discounting 125 grain Mag's due to the fact that they cause havoc with flame cutting and accelerated wear on small revolvers) .357 Magnum load from the "Big Three" manufacturers and here is why..........

The .357 cartridge was not designed for snubby's - it was designed for 6 inch barreled guns. It has a violent recoil and large muzzle flash and out of a 2 inch barrel a good percentage of the powder is burned outside the barrel causing an even larger and brighter muzzle flash. This in turn means that the big muzzle flash creates all sorts of problems and does not burn inside the barrel which would work to propel the projectile faster. I won't even get into the beating your 2" J or K takes from Magnum loads here.

From my actual chronograph testing (M66 2.5" bbl.) I have found that the actual muzzle velocity of the BB +P .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP-GC is a very consistent 1040 fps while 158 grain .357 JHP Magnums from Remington and Winchester were below the 1000 fps mark out of the same gun. The BB load has almost no muzzle flash while the Magnum's is huge. The recoil from the Magnum is a whole lot greater than the .38 Special and the beating a small J or K frame takes from a Magnum load is a whole lot more than a .38 Special. Accuracy and follow up shots also suffer greatly with the Magnum load, as does the pain in your hands from shooting them. Night blindness from Magnums is also a concern here.

If you are in the woods and carrying a 5 or 6 inch L or N frame then the .357 Magnum does offer great advantages over the .38 Special and is not difficult to control - that's what it was designed for, but for a 2" snubby my personal feeling is that using Magnum loads is a huge disadvantage. I would bet they now make special snub-nose Magnums and I know there will be some disagreement here, but this is just one mans opinion for general SD purposes. YMMV.

Respectfully,
Chief38

Chief38, THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE POSTS ON THE SUBJECT THAT I HAVE EVER READ. THERE IS ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC DATA HERE--NOT JUST ANECTDOTAL BS. I HAVE OFTEN CONTENDED THAT THE .357 MAGNUM LOAD WAS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE OUT OF A SHORT BARREL. THE FLASH, NOISE AND RECOIL HAD TO BE OVERCOME (WITH GREAT DIFFICULTY) IN ORDER TO PUT FOLLOW UP SHOTS ON TARGET. I ALSO POSITED THAT THERE WOULD BE LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN TERMINAL EFFECT BETWEEN .38SPL+P AND .357 MAGNUM BULLETS OF THE SAME TYPE @ S/D RANGE OF 20' OR SO. DEAD IS DEAD. FOR THIS REASON, I LOAD BOTH MY 686+ AND MY 642 WITH THE SAME AMMO---SPEER GOLD DOT, 135GR JHP, IN .38SPL +P, WHICH IS DESIGNED FOR SHORT BARRELS AND FEATURES LOW FLASH. IT'S NICE TO GET SOME VALIDATION FROM A MAN WITH HARD DATA. I NEVER IMAGINED THAT THE MAGNUM ROUNDS THAT YOU CHRONOED WOULD BE MOVING SLOWER THAN THE BB +P. I WONDER IF THERE IS ANY COMPARATIVE DATA BETWEEN THE GOLD DOT AND BB +P ROUNDS, REGARDING SPEED, PENETRATION, EXPANSION AND WEIGHT RETENTION. I MAY DO A CHECK ON YOUTUBE…..

 

[ironhead7544]

I was skeptical about the "less recoil" powders. Didnt seem to make sense. But, it is true. I guess it is a "felt" recoil thing. My guess is that the powder burns at a rate that changes the recoil velocity. The sharp jab comes over a longer time and feels like less recoil.

IMR4227 is a flash suppressed powder for handloading. The magnum rounds give an orange glow instead of a blinding flash.