Revolver-time
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What in the world does your statement have to do with anything?
BUFFALO BORE .38 SPECIAL VS .357 MAGNUM FROM A SNUBBY
- Thread starter chief38
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What in the world does your statement have to do with anything?
I agree with the above for snubbies, with the exception of using the BB version of the FBI load. Out of a snubby, expansion is not always guaranteed, so you want the softest lead. IIRC, both Winchester and Remington's version of the load has softer lead, which has a better chance of expanding.
Well, yes and no. Winchester's version uses a harder alloy. Remington has widely been known for being the softest, though that may have changed with their HTP line... Anecdotal stories suggest that the new Remington LHP is closer to the Winchester version in hardness.
Some people don't enjoy shooting full-house magnums out of snubs for the simple reason that they've decided the added flash and recoil isn't worth the modest increase in velocity over .38 Special +P. The "short barrel" offering from Speer, and perhaps arguably Remington's Golden Saber have more in common with .38 Spec. +P+ loads than .357 Magnum, yet they're much more pleasant to shoot from short barrels.
Agreed. Past week I put both BB .38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHC and Remington Golden Saber .357 Magnum 125 grain HP through a 640, and the .357 load had noticeably milder recoil compared to the BB .38+P.
uncleted327
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Agreed. Past week I put both BB .38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHC and Remington Golden Saber .357 Magnum 125 grain HP through a 640, and the .357 load had noticeably milder recoil compared to the BB .38+P.
That's because the BB is loaded closer to a 357 Magnum than a 38 Special.
Which is the point some of us are trying to make. A hot 38 has no less flash or recoil than a light loaded 357, and there is more than a marginal difference between a 38 and 357 in any barrel length. If you only compare the hottest 38s to the lightest 357s you aren't proving anything, and it makes it sound like you're trying to talk yourself into believing that a 38 is as affective as a 357.
Agreed. Past week I put both BB .38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHC and Remington Golden Saber .357 Magnum 125 grain HP through a 640, and the .357 load had noticeably milder recoil compared to the BB .38+P.
Did you chronograph these?
uncleted327
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The 158gr BB 38+P is one of the hottest 38s on the market, the 125 gr Golden Saber is one of the most anemic magnums on the market. Not to mention the lighter 125 should recoil less than a 158 being pushed to a similar velocity. Try shooting a BB 158gr Magnum next to the BB 158 38+P if you want an honest comparison.
I've tried the BB FBI load in my J frames and found follow up shots very slow and difficult to get back on target. It's good stuff but a bit stout for me. I'll stick w/the Remington or similar +P load, it's just easier for me to handle, big boy pants not withstanding.
Wish I could've, but nope. Hand feel only.
OP
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Well it's better to hit your intended target with all shots then miss it with most I suppose.
The BB +P's do take some getting used to and I have found that the grips on the gun make a big difference. I went through the trouble and expense of having custom grips made (for my M60-7) and it has helped tame recoil substantially.
ironhead7544
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The weight of the ejecta also matters. The slower powders weigh more and this can add to the recoil impulse.
There is also the flash factor. The brighter flash "seems" to recoil more to some people. Also, there are some powders that are made to recoil less. I really did not believe that but it can be true. The factories can get powders we handloaders cannot. The flash thing seems to be subjective.
The grips make some difference too. If they dont fit your hand right, it may hurt to fire the gun.
In the 44 Magnum, IMR4227 seems to recoil differently than the other full load powders. It seems to spread the recoil over a longer time making for a "softer" recoil. Probably subjective on my part but perception is part of recoil.
The older factory 357 Magnum loads with lead SWC bullets ran about 1100 FPS in a 4 inch barrel. This dropped to a little over 1000 fps from a 2 inch barrel. The original 357 Magnum loads were loaded to higher pressures than todays. There can be a difference depending on when the ammo was made. You can easily get 100 fps difference from identical revolvers so when chronoing loads keep this in mind. With the right load, a handloader can sometimes get better than factory speeds.
I aree with the OP on the Buffalo Bore loads.
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ironhead7544
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OT, but yes. There used to be a 50 gr 22 Magnum load with a Speer Gold Dot bullet. Even from a 1 and 1/2 inch barrel it would expand to .40 inch. Went about 900 fps from that barrel length. From a 6 and 1/2 inch revolver I clocked that 50 gr load at 1190 fps.
There is now a 40 gr Gold Dot load but I havent any experience with it. The Gold Dot design should insure expansion so it might help a little.
Biggfoot44
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* I Was There during the Revolver Era, and I Chrono'ed everything * From several guns with different bbl lengths.
Balnket Statement #1 - the most potent loads from a 4in , were also the most potent loads from 2.0/2.5/2.75/3.0 inch also. Period.
Also there were extra hot .38 loads , and a variety of power level to .357 ammo, to the point of having a seamless continum of recoil levels.
The origionator of "modern" extra hot .38 as the Treasury Load ( 110jhp +P+ , also the second most common issued .38 load in the later Revolver Era. CorBon's 115+P+ , and later 110+P handily increased over them. The 115+P+ was fully equal to major mfg 110jhp .357 , and the 110+P only about 50fps behind.
The .357 110jhp from Big Three( four ) was always intended to be a 75-80% loading. R-P introduced the concept of "medimum vel" 125gr jhp .357 to have similar recoil with heavier bullet, several smaller mfgs offered a similar loading. When R-P introduced the Golden Sabre , the .357 loading had similar vel and similar performance, but at twice the price.
For home defense from both 2in K frame and Speed Six , I standardized on the CorBon for simplicty. 115+P+ , and later when discontinued ( because of mfg cost , not lack of demand) , their 110+P .
But the real question in ammo selection is not the "most powerful-est" , but the best balance of power and control , from YOUR gun, in YOUR hand(s) .
In those days my frequent BUG was 2in SqButt M37 . I was doing enough constant practice then , that I could barely meet my personal minimum standards with 158+P LHP . It was NOT fun, it HURT. It was far more abusive to the shooter than full power .44mag. That was then. 25yr later , 25yr older, less frequent practice the calculus may be different.
There is a school of thought to ignore flame cutting and accelerated wear. A defensive firearm is a replacable tool to protect you.
Also ,as far as I was concerned 158+P from a 13oz gun was the upper limit of anything I could either sort of control, or wish to shoot. *To me* the smallest thing I'd wish/ control to shoot full power .357 is a Ruger SP101 ( sorry , I know this is S&W forum , but the SP101 exactly hit the sweet spot ). If I wasn't going to go full power 125 , I'd be ok with CorBon hot .38 .
Speaking from a control viewpoint ( not opening penetration debate in this thread) those users of lighter than air .357's should experement with their gun , in their hand(s) for what works best for them : .38std vel 125 < .38+P 125 < .38+P 158LHP< .38 135 Gold Dot< .357 110jhp (NOT CorBon)< .357 Golden Sabre. ( CorBon .357 110 is an excellent load , but is cranked up to full power , contrary to the controlability theme of this thread.)
Balnket Statement #1 - the most potent loads from a 4in , were also the most potent loads from 2.0/2.5/2.75/3.0 inch also. Period.
Also there were extra hot .38 loads , and a variety of power level to .357 ammo, to the point of having a seamless continum of recoil levels.
The origionator of "modern" extra hot .38 as the Treasury Load ( 110jhp +P+ , also the second most common issued .38 load in the later Revolver Era. CorBon's 115+P+ , and later 110+P handily increased over them. The 115+P+ was fully equal to major mfg 110jhp .357 , and the 110+P only about 50fps behind.
The .357 110jhp from Big Three( four ) was always intended to be a 75-80% loading. R-P introduced the concept of "medimum vel" 125gr jhp .357 to have similar recoil with heavier bullet, several smaller mfgs offered a similar loading. When R-P introduced the Golden Sabre , the .357 loading had similar vel and similar performance, but at twice the price.
For home defense from both 2in K frame and Speed Six , I standardized on the CorBon for simplicty. 115+P+ , and later when discontinued ( because of mfg cost , not lack of demand) , their 110+P .
But the real question in ammo selection is not the "most powerful-est" , but the best balance of power and control , from YOUR gun, in YOUR hand(s) .
In those days my frequent BUG was 2in SqButt M37 . I was doing enough constant practice then , that I could barely meet my personal minimum standards with 158+P LHP . It was NOT fun, it HURT. It was far more abusive to the shooter than full power .44mag. That was then. 25yr later , 25yr older, less frequent practice the calculus may be different.
There is a school of thought to ignore flame cutting and accelerated wear. A defensive firearm is a replacable tool to protect you.
Also ,as far as I was concerned 158+P from a 13oz gun was the upper limit of anything I could either sort of control, or wish to shoot. *To me* the smallest thing I'd wish/ control to shoot full power .357 is a Ruger SP101 ( sorry , I know this is S&W forum , but the SP101 exactly hit the sweet spot ). If I wasn't going to go full power 125 , I'd be ok with CorBon hot .38 .
Speaking from a control viewpoint ( not opening penetration debate in this thread) those users of lighter than air .357's should experement with their gun , in their hand(s) for what works best for them : .38std vel 125 < .38+P 125 < .38+P 158LHP< .38 135 Gold Dot< .357 110jhp (NOT CorBon)< .357 Golden Sabre. ( CorBon .357 110 is an excellent load , but is cranked up to full power , contrary to the controlability theme of this thread.)
Biggfoot44
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Related Ramblings
I like .22WMR revolvers, but bbl length makes a huge difference.
From a 4.75in bbl , a 40gr will go 1300-1400 ft second ( different loads/ lots , not shot to shot variation). But from a snub , you will get similar vel to a 4in .22lr. But you will get noise and fire ! Enough to convince bystanders it is at least a .38+P . Distraction for you , maybe psycologic warfare for the bad guys ?
Back in the Revolver Era , most small frame snub owners also had real revolver too. The DA trigger manipulation skills gain by practing with a K Frame substantly carry over to J Frame trigger work. In the modern era when belt guns are typically bottomfeeders , and snubs are mostly pocket guns, it's more of a challenge to learn DA trigger work from scratch on a lightwieght J Frame.
I like .22WMR revolvers, but bbl length makes a huge difference.
From a 4.75in bbl , a 40gr will go 1300-1400 ft second ( different loads/ lots , not shot to shot variation). But from a snub , you will get similar vel to a 4in .22lr. But you will get noise and fire ! Enough to convince bystanders it is at least a .38+P . Distraction for you , maybe psycologic warfare for the bad guys ?
Back in the Revolver Era , most small frame snub owners also had real revolver too. The DA trigger manipulation skills gain by practing with a K Frame substantly carry over to J Frame trigger work. In the modern era when belt guns are typically bottomfeeders , and snubs are mostly pocket guns, it's more of a challenge to learn DA trigger work from scratch on a lightwieght J Frame.
Agree with the OP. I recently chrono'd PMC .357mag JSP from a 3" Bond Arms, 2" Ruger LCR and 3(+)" Sp101 and velocities overlapped other 'remfedchester' 158gr magnum loads....
Long story short, velocities were just a hair under 1000fps from the derringer, a hair over 1000fps from the LCR and 1114fps in the SP101.
The BB +P load averaged 1012fps when chrono'd years ago from my trusty 442... Faster than +P Hornady gets with a 110gr bullet.
Recoil is certainly stout with that load in an Airweight, but not bad in a steel gun.
Long story short, velocities were just a hair under 1000fps from the derringer, a hair over 1000fps from the LCR and 1114fps in the SP101.
The BB +P load averaged 1012fps when chrono'd years ago from my trusty 442... Faster than +P Hornady gets with a 110gr bullet.
Recoil is certainly stout with that load in an Airweight, but not bad in a steel gun.
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I'm going to start a new thread- - how many of you have fired full house .357 Magnum rounds through a 2" revolver and will you ever do it again and would you carry that for self defense?
Okay, I admit my 2.5" M686+ and my 2.5" M19 handle .357 Magnum rounds just fine but, still, I did that just to "see" how they handled the magnum rounds - I'd never make a steady diet of them, even in the 686, and I certainly don't use magnum rounds in those guns for SD and the 686 is ALWAYS at my bedside.
I could go on - it's a personal pet peeve of mine - how many folks stoke up their little guns with magnum rounds and without realizing the tradeoffs in flame, recoil, inability to get off the second round, etc. I feel the same way about +P rounds in my snubby Airweights. It's a total waste.
***GRJ***
Okay, I admit my 2.5" M686+ and my 2.5" M19 handle .357 Magnum rounds just fine but, still, I did that just to "see" how they handled the magnum rounds - I'd never make a steady diet of them, even in the 686, and I certainly don't use magnum rounds in those guns for SD and the 686 is ALWAYS at my bedside.
I could go on - it's a personal pet peeve of mine - how many folks stoke up their little guns with magnum rounds and without realizing the tradeoffs in flame, recoil, inability to get off the second round, etc. I feel the same way about +P rounds in my snubby Airweights. It's a total waste.
***GRJ***
