44 cal Top Break

[Swiftmotoring]

Very nice pictures, thanks for posting! Would love to see others as well. Well I have done a fair amount of research over the last week and I believe the best way to go is to make the revolver safe and shootable and no more. I am a big believer in preserving the patina of guns and old cars as they are only original once. I am going to wait for the Jinks letter and then send the gun to David Chicoine to make it shoot worthy. I am open to any other thoughts and ideas. Thanks for all the advice.
Marvin

 

[twaits]

Very nice pictures, thanks for posting! Would love to see others as well. Well I have done a fair amount of research over the last week and I believe the best way to go is to make the revolver safe and shootable and no more. I am a big believer in preserving the patina of guns and old cars as they are only original once. I am going to wait for the Jinks letter and then send the gun to David Chicoine to make it shoot worthy. I am open to any other thoughts and ideas. Thanks for all the advice.
Marvin

It's only original once! I'm with you on this.
Its funny, if I had the choice of going to a huge old car show or going to a huge old junkyard full of cars from the '20s-'50s I would choose the junkyard everytime!

 

[Swiftmotoring]

I am going to remove the grips on my 44-40 tonight. Should the serial number show up on the grips or on the stock under the gun somewhere?

 

[glowe]

Ideally, the serial number will be scratched on the inside of the grip, but I think some had pencil marks which may be long gone. There are probably no marks on the frame inside the grip area, since this model used serial numbers to identify the parts. Older models used letters or assembly numbers that were different than the serial number to keep track of the parts.

Only mark that could show up would be a date. That would signify the revolver was returned to the S&W factory for refinish, but there is usually a star near the butt sn if that was the case.

 

[Swiftmotoring]

Thank you. I am amazed at the wealth of information on offer here! No luck getting the grips off. Removing the screw was no problem after applying rem oil and letting it sit for a couple days but the grips are on tight and I do not want to risk any damage to the plastic grips by forcing them off. Any suggestions?
I did find the serial number in another place, on what is referred to as the barrel latch I think.
I am still not exactly sure what model Smith & Wesson revolver this is. Can I give more data to help determine the exact model?
Thanks again,
Marvin

 

[glowe]

You most likely have a .44 Double-Action 1st Model, or soimetimes called Model of 1881. This revolver usually came in 44 Russian caliber. There is also a possibility that it is it could be a 44-40, which is called .44 Double Action Frontier. I did not see any information on whether your gun is 44 Russian or 44-40, so you will have to determine which you have.

If you have a cylinder length of 1 7/16" it can only be a 44 Russian, and if it is 1 9/16 it can be either.

Try backing out the grip screw part way and tap on the screw head with a rubber hammer. The grip on the opposite side should pop free. If not, use a single edge razor blade and slide it in between the frame and the grip on the butt. There is a stud that extends into the grip to keep it in place at the center of the butt. Work you way around with the razor blade until the grip comes loose. These were made out of hard rubber and sometimes get brittle with age so go slow.

 

[Swiftmotoring]

Thanks and yes, the cylinder length is 1 9/16 and it is a 44-40 which I assume makes it a Frontier DA 44-40. I will find out for certain when The Letter arrives. I decided to leave well enough alone and not remove the grips. I don't think the risk/reward is worth it. Can't wait to shoot my new toy!
Marvin

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

There is no question of what model you own. S&W only made one large frame top break double action revolver. Generically they were all called the 44 Double Action. They are very distinctive looking, with the vertical cut on the cylinder and the very distinctive trigger and trigger guard. They were only made from 1881 until 1913, although all of the frames had actually been manufactured by 1899. They also came in a target version with target sights, but yours has the standard fixed sights.

As has been stated, most of these guns came chambered for 44 Russian, which is an earlier cartridge than 44 Special. 44 Russian is about 1/10" shorter than 44 Special.

There were some made in 44 WCF and 38 WCF. These were given special names, the 44 WCF version was called the 44 Double Action Frontier, and the 38 WCF version was called the 38 Winchester Double Action. There was also a very rare version called the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite, but that is not what you have. The Favorite was a lighter weight version with metal removed in some areas of the gun.

You have already stated that your revolver is 44 caliber. That narrows it down to either the standard 44DA, or the 44 Double Action Frontier. If you measure the length of your cylinder it will either be 1 7/16" long or 1 9/16" long. The longer cylinder will mean it is the 44 Double Action Frontier, the shorter cylinder, for the early Serial Number you have, will mean it is the standard 44 Double Action, chambedred for 44 Russian. That's really all there is to it. By the way, these guns were never chambered for 44 Special.

I have attached a photo of a few cartridges so you can see their relative lengths, and why the 44 WCF and 38 WCF guns needed the longer cylinders. Left to right in the photo the cartridges are 44 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44-40 (44WCF), and 38-40 (38WCF). You can see how much shorter the 44 Russian cartridge is. 44 Russian was the cartridge S&W developed for the Russian government when they won a large order to supply the Czarist government with revolvers. It became the most popular 44 cartridge S&W chambered their revolvers for until they developed the 44 Special about 1907. The 44 Special was developed from the 44 Russian. It shares all the same dimensions except it is about 1/10" longer. The 44 Special was developed for S&W's first 44 caliber revolver with a swing out cylinder, popularly known as the Triple Lock.

P.S. I see you are anxious to shoot it. Let me warn you again, do not shoot modern Smokeless ammunition in it. This includes Cowboy ammunition. If you send the gun to Dave Chicoine he will back me up in that statement. Your gun should only be fired with ammunition loaded with Black Powder.

 

[TACC1]

Now I'm getting wound up!

That's a great looking gun you got for the best price there is!
Really hope its mechanical condition makes it a shooter.
Like twaits said, going to Dave Chicoine is the hot ticket. I have
one firearm he worked on, and I'll jump up and vouch for his work, too.
Bringing back one of these old treasures is a noble thing, in
my book. TACC1

 

[Swiftmotoring]

Thanks again for the advice and as I am excited to own such a classic and do want to shoot I absolutely will not even consider shooting the gun until I am certain it is safe to do so! Luckily David Chicoine is located about 2 hrs from me and I will be shipping the gun to him after I recieve my letter and we will decide on a course of action. I am thinking I want to preserve the gun, as opposed to any sort of refurbish. I simply want it to be a shooter, with appropriate ammo, and a conversation piece that will become an heirloom for my family. Quite frankly a gun this old has never been on my radar but I have been pleasantly surprised with the following these guns have by very knowledeable and enthusiastic owners. I would consider adding others to my humble collection.
Marvin

 

[Swiftmotoring]

And yes, it is a 44-40 caliber with a 1 and 9/16 chamber.

 

[twaits]

Another thing I do for stubborn grip removal is simply use a piece of paper. A good heavy paper and some patience. You can eventually work the paper into the crack and keep working it around until the grip loosens.

 

[Swiftmotoring]

Well my forensic skills continue to improve thanks to the suggestions of forum members! I was able to get the grips off, I do not see any dating inside the grips although I do see a number of markings. Both grips have an X scribed in the bottom left corner, both grips have the initials WB at the top of the grip and both grips seem to have a name scribed into the middle of the grips. Not sure if this means anything to anyone.....maybe the Jinks letter will tie it all together somehow. Have a look at the pictures and let me know what you think.
Marvin

 

[twaits]

Its not uncommon for people to scratch or write their name on the inside of the grips. It tough to see in the pictures but can you make out what is written?

 

[LostintheOzone]

Twaits, I have a value question for you or others posting on this thread. I have located a 44 Russian that looks exactly like the 44-40 you have in the lower photo with a shorter barrel, maybe 5". The gun is nickel and I'm not seeing any flecks or spots in the nickel. I don't think the gun is refinished as the hammer and trigger is blue. This gun is about 80% in my estimation and is tight and functions as it should. Caliber is 44 Russian. I can get serial # tommorow.

What would be a low-high value on this model? Owner wants $1000. Is this a fair price. I would like to have it as a collector and not a shooter. I have plenty of other pistols to shoot.

I'm a new member and posted an intro over in that section.

Thanks

Jim

 

[glowe]

If - and it's a big IF without pictures - the finish is original and almost 100%, then the price you quoted is fair. Usually, refinished guns retain their case hardened hammer and trigger. Only the uneducated gunsmith refinishes the whole gun. Several things to check for . . .

1. Rounded edges, particularly along the sideplate edges. Factory finished guns are perfectly fit, sometimes even hard to see the seam between the frame and the sideplate. Often the edges are slightly rounded in refinished examples.

2. Flattened pins or screws that are buffed without removal. Original pins have a round top and extend beyond the frame.

3. Might be a factory refinished gun, as they usually have a star by the serial number on the butt and a month and year stamped beneath the grips.

4. Gun may have mismatched serial numbers on the major parts - make sure they match. Also, most grips have a matching serial number - make sure they are correct with the age of the gun.

5. Make sure if functions perfectly for this money.

Lots to look for, but if buying an original high finish gun these things greatly affect value. Value of refinished and lesser quality guns often are in the $500 - $700 range. Non-working revolvers bring less.

Hope this helps.

Gary
SWCA #2515

 

[twaits]

LostintheOzone,
Hammer and trigger should be case hardened and not blue. Pictures would be helpful. You should start another thread with pictures so as to not hijack this one. Then we could get some idea of what kind of condition the gun is in.

 

[Swiftmotoring]

Again, thanks to everyone for the solid advice on my antique Smith & Wesson. So....I have a local gunsmith that really wants to work on my revolve, says it will be simple to make it safe to shoot. Conventional wisdom says to be patient and wait for the letter, then send the gun to Chicoine for an evaluation and repairs. In your opinion, what is the upside/downside of letting an eager local work an an old revolver like this.
Marvin

 

[Swiftmotoring]

Anxiously awaiting the arrival of "The Letter!" Any day now.....

 

[Muley Gil]

"In your opinion, what is the upside/downside of letting an eager local work an an old revolver like this."

Most gunsmiths have never popped the sideplate on a gun this old.

I'd wait for David if he is only two hours away.