1870 America model 3 Smith & Wesson hand Eject 44 cal 2 digit serial number

[vytautus]

Check page 89 in the Supica book. Here is the google link


Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson - Jim Supica, Richard Nahas - Google Books
It states the foreign copies patterned after the Schofields almost all have the shorter new model 3 ejector housing, which this gun does.

 

[Masterpiece]

Duaine,

If you don't want to believe any of the excellent information you've been provided with so far,why don't you send off to Roy for a Factory Research Letter as I recommended you should do when I first emailed you?? I even sent you the PDF File to print out the Letter!! What more are you asking of everybody?? If you don't want to believe anyone here,I'm sure he'll set you straight!!

Ed Cornett's information is as best as it gets!! Ed has forgotten more about these Early Lg-Frame Top-Breaks than most of us have ever known or will hope to know!! I'm sure I can speak for most when I say that generally the information he posts is considered to be undisputable concerning these Revolvers!! He's been at this for quite some time & has seen most of what there is to see!! Ed,keep up the good work!!

 

[junkking4fun]

Khyber Pass according to the internet made exact copies of originals, so why cant i find one that looks like this one. guns made by Khyber Pass are not even close
so what is your next guess on what you think
thanks

 

[junkking4fun]

I have taken your advice as for Ed Cornett's opinion I listen but his toughts do not match up, he is only making guesses because he can not find this gun made by any one so he assums it is a copy but he really has no idea, If he can see it in a book he has no clue what it is
thanks

 

[junkking4fun]

ejector housing is coverd on Schofields mine has the shaft exposed
there is alot of photos close to this one but not the same, I originaly thought Schofield, but after looking its not, if I knew the size S&W used to mark the serial numbers I could compare mine that might be the biggest clue all my number 17 are the same size any one have an old model 3 that can mesure a serial number and let me know what it is thanks

 

[junkking4fun]

Dont get me wrong this is only a gun nothing to get into a pissing match over, I think this is a learning experiance even for the Experts who think they have seen it all but has not , and I have offers from $150.00 to $7200.00 so this is one of the reasons I want to know for sure what it is, if its fake its fake if it is real it is real, I wont sell it till I know without a doubt. I know it is rear because there is no know others out there thanks

 

[Camster]

Take the 7200 and run fast.

 

[junkking4fun]

There are three major variations of the № 3 as delivered to the Russians during the first contract:
1. First issue - revolvers with old style straight bottom frames, small trigger pin, old style hinge pin, and marked with assembly numbers. Some of these may be missing some of the first mechanical improvements. Of the approximately 500 first issue revolvers that were manufactured, so far, only two pieces are currently known.
2. Second issue - revolvers with old style straight bottom frames, the small trigger pin, old style hinge pin, but marked with full serial numbers instead of assembly numbers. Approx 2500 pieces manufactured. (revolvers have been observed with high, 5000ish, serials? Datig)
3. Third issue - guns with new style (enlarged trigger pin boss) frames, enlarged trigger pin, new style 2 piece hinge pin, and marked with full serial numbers. Approx 15-17000 third issue revolvers produced.

The original Smith & Wesson №3 "Americans" had been produced with a full serial number on the butt and the inside of the right grip plate. Assembly numbers were put on the major parts; the master assembly number on the frame was found on the right side of the butt portion of the frame underneath the right grip plate and the matching assembly numbers were located on the face of the cylinder, the barrel latch and the rear face of the barrel extension.

 

[junkking4fun]

I dont need the money , but I will sell it when I know what it is for sure and price it at a fair price if its a copy I will sell as copy if original I will sell as original if prototype I will sell as prototype I would feel good selling it till I know what it is for sure thanks

 

[deadin]

One last try to convince you that what you have is not a S&W of any type.
The barrel contour around the hinge (the part with the ugly hole drilled in it and the "ejector" rod protruding is that of the New Model #3 which didn't exist until 1878. The latching system is that of the Schofield that went out of production in 1877. So there is no way that it would be a "prototype". There is a possibility that the barrel section could be from a NM#3 and was used to splice together with what appears to be a homemade or handmade frame that was inspired by a #3 American or OOM Russian. The whole thing reeks of a Khyber Pass type of gun wherever it may have been made. Some craftsman (and I use that term in the loosest way possible) put that thing together after looking at pictures of several different S&W systems and didn't have the slightest idea of how some of the internal parts worked (i.e. the extraction mechanism) therefore the "push rod" extractor.
I will admit that it may well be unique but it is nothing more than a curiosity and is worth no more than your "bottom" offer.
(Of course it may be worth more to you as a means to troll the board.......)

Added: If you find someone that will pay anywhere near the $7200.00 you mentioned, please send them over to me. I think I can come up with several more "Rare Smith & Wesson Prototypes". (If I can't find any, I can make a few. I have several machine tools and files.....

 

[junkking4fun]

I agree this gun looks like a first time makers really rough but who ever had this back in the day shot it a whole lot, it is posible to be some kind of copy. seems to me they used different parts from different guns to make this, what puzzles me if the numbers are in the right spots and all match I am still not convinced its a copy or a knockoff thanks

 

[deadin]

what puzzles me if the numbers are in the right spots and all match

I don't see the numbers in the "right spots" for a S&W. Where's the barrel number? Why is the hand numbered? (S&W didn't do this) Also S&W never held the trigger guard on with a screw on any gun. Is there a number on the back of the extractor star? What's with the hole through the hammer (Like it was meant for a pinned firing pin. S&W didn't do this until the Model 1899 Hand Ejector) Is one of the screws that hold the latch base on the barrel numbered? So many questions, so few believable answers........

 

[junkking4fun]

ok I found the gun I have thanks to you if you look on page 98 in Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson 3rd edition and where it is hi-lighted MARKINGS it shows the patent dates and the top of the barrel is the same as mine Smith & Wesson Springfeild Mass USA Pat July 17 24th 65 July 11th 65 Aug 24th 69 July 25th 71 and the serial numbers started with number 1 after serial 500 it changed to scofeild
the first ones was nickle plated like mine for civilian use and the rest was buled and marked with US for the military mine dose not have us also scofeild added there name on the side of the barrel and mine is not marked on the side, they say only 2 are know from the first 500 made thats why we cant find a photo with the ejector like mine .
thanks for the help Duaine

 

[Masterpiece]

Serial Number Comparison!!

To All Concerned,

Here are a few photos of a couple areas from Authentic S&W's of mine that have Serial Numbers of the Period to compare to the Revolver in question!! I had to look through a couple of mine,but I was lucky enough to find at least one that had a Serial Number with both a 1 & 7 in it to compare your No.17 to!! As you can see they're nowhere close!! Satisfied now??

I've also posted a photo of the Modified Extractor Rod on the Revolver in question!! You'll see how an Extended Rod has been crudely brazed onto the existing Extractor Shaft because the Original Extractor Cam must have failed during the course of it's use & a hole was drilled through the Outer Extractor Housing for the Extended Rod to protrude thru to Extract the Spent Cartridges !! This was "Not" Original even to this Revolver!!

I think it's about time we put this Thread to bed as I believe all of the pertinent information needed to prove our point has been passed on!! What do all of you think??

 

[vytautus]

I measured my serial numbers on my Anitua Y Charlo Merwin Hulbert copy's hammer. They look like the same script as yours and are 3mm tall. The barrel address could also be explained this way. Spanish patents were for different periods than US patents. Try putting a 44-40 cartridge in the cylinder and a 44 special. If neither go, your gun is probably chambered for 44-30 MH or 44 Mexican. It is likely a Spanish copy made for the Mexican market. They made copies of everything some licensed some not. Read this link: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/PR-one.pdf

 

[Camster]

Forgive me for saying this,but I don't think that the combined expertise of hundred of years of the forum members,most light years ahead of me,(and I deem it a copy) is going to convince him that it is anything other than an ultra rarity.

 

[Masterpiece]

Forgive me for saying this,but I don't think that the combined expertise of hundred of years of the forum members,most light years ahead of me,(and I deem it a copy) is going to convince him that it is anything other than an ultra rarity.

Ya Think So??? Ha!Ha!

 

[deadin]

Duaine,
You must have a different copy of the SCSW 3rd Edition than I do......
To start with, Schofield's have the patent markings on the side of the extractor housing (the one that is missing on yours) not on the top of the barrel. These same patent dates are found on top of the barrel on the New Model #3.
(And many of the inferior Spanish copies.)
The "U.S." marking on the butt is crosswise to the frame (either on the toe or heel, depending on model) not lengthwise as it is on yours.
As for your other claims... Serial changing after 500, First ones plated, the rest blued, only 2 known from the first 500, etc., I can't seem to find any of this in the SCSW. Where are you finding it?

Aside from the gun under discussion, where are you from?
I'm getting the feeling you are not a native English speaker and there may be some things being lost in translation.

 

[junkking4fun]

I Have shot 2 - 44 cal bullets with this gun on Saturday But I took the lead out for safty reason and it fired them with no problem but I did notice they didnt fit tight in the chamber,
the chamber size is 11 to 12 mm so some say it is 45 cal,
thanks

 

[junkking4fun]

mine is not a Schofield