Model 30 .32 S&W long revolver, ammo question

[I'm3rd]

My wife has inherited a model 30-1 .32S&W Long revolver from her mother. It has fired very few rounds and looks practically brand new. The serial # places date of manufacture in the mid to late 1960s according to someone on another gun forum who claims to know that sort of thing. My wife intends to keep it as her "house gun", but I have been told that the only factory .32 Long ammo that is now available is loaded down to a very low pressure level so it won't blow up any of the many thousands of 19th century vintage El Cheapo .32 hinge-frame revolvers that are still in use.

I bought dies for reloading .32 Long and have ordered some 65 grain Gold Dot HP bullets to load in new brass for her little gun. I also have a Handloader's Digest that gives updated loading data for .32 Long ammo intended only for use in modern quality-built guns in good condition that can safely handle more pressure and deliver much higher velocity than generated by the .32 Long factory ammo that's available today. According to the data the .32 Long can be safely loaded to a level not far behind the .32 H&R but it's only safe if fired in a modern steel frame gun. Speer also gives data for loading the 65 gr Gold Dot bullet in .32 Long cases to produce higher velocity loadings for that cartridge.

However, I have read elsewhere that .32 Long cartridges loaded with a heavier than normal propellant charge should not be used in modern .32 revolvers unless the gun has a heat treated steel cylinder. Therefore my question is this, does anyone reading this post know whether or not Model 30-1 revolvers were heat treated at the time this revolver was manufactured? I would like to load several hundred rounds of higher performance ammo for my wife's gun so she can practice with the same ammo it will be loaded with for serious use , but I want to make sure that it's safe in her gun. Thanks in advance for any reliable info from anyone on this matter.

 

[Sixgunner John]

Your right on the downloading of factory 32sw long rds. As late a production as your model 30 is it should be safe with any loads in the new manuals. I had a colt detective spl from the same time frame and shot lots of what would be considererd +p loads before the 32mag and never had a problem. Sixgunner john

 

[hiram2005]

You can also shoot 32 ACP out of your model 30. Several good HP's available for ACP.

 

[cgt4570]

Lots of people have the chambers lengthened just a tad to allow the use of .32 H&R Magnum rounds with no ill effects.

 

[H Richard]

The "model numbers" were started in 1957, and heat treat was started long before that. I wouldn't try to go to magnum pressures, but +P shouldn't be a problem.

 

[I'm3rd]

Thanks for all the info guys. I was pretty sure that even if it doesn't have a heat treated cylinder any modern steel Smith in good shape could safely handle quite a bit more pressure than the weak-sister .32 Long factory ammo that's loaded to be safe in ancient pot metal revolvers. When my ordered bullets arrive from Midway I'll go ahead and handload 20 or 30 rounds using data I found in my Handloader's Digest and try them myself before letting my wife fire it. I don't have data for the 65 grain Gold Dot bullets I have on order, but the data for 71 grain FMJ bullets should work OK for the Dots too. She has bad arthritis in her hands and can't tolerate much recoil so this little Smith will probably be all the gun she can handle. She previously had a H&R .22LR with a 2" barrel, but she now realizes that it was not adequate for stopping a deadly threat, and even the 5' rattler she killed with it while I was on the road took a long time to give up the ghost. Even a .32 Long revolver loaded with the best ammo available is still not a good manstopper. But a lot of LEOs carry little Keltec, Ruger, or Beretta .32 semiautos as BUGs, and according to my cousin's LEO husband when loaded with 60 grain Silvertip ammo they're proving to be more effective than anybody expected them to be.

 

[Hondo44]

Heat treated S&W cylinders

Source: Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 3rd edition. The government contract for S&W to build 1917 45 ACP revolvers for WW I stipulated heat treated cylinders. By c.1920 S&W heat treated all of its revolver cylinders.

Therefore your 30-1 is heat treated and more than sufficiently strong for the "modern revolver loads". I use them in my 1966 vintage 30-1 with absolutely no ill effects. Feel comfortable to proceed with no reservations.

 

[I'm3rd]

You can also shoot 32 ACP out of your model 30. Several good HP's available for ACP.

What about extraction of the rimless .32 acp cases? What keeps them from slipping through the chambers to where the firing pin won't reach the primer? I hear that .32 acp Silvertips are used by quite few LEOs for their semiauto BUGs so they must be adequate for that role, but I haven't seen anybody loading those in a revolver. I appreciate your suggestion and I'm not doubting the information, I just don't quite see how it would work.

Anyway, I think I still have an old stash of GECO .32acp empty cases hiding out somewhere around my bench, and I'll try loading and extracting them in my wife's revolver. If they work OK that would open up a whole new bag of possibilities. Thanks again.

 

[Alk8944]

The story of .32 S&W Long being loaded down is a bunch of hooey, the cartridge never was particularly powerful. It started out as a Black Powder cartridge for the .32 Hand Ejector Model of 1896, and is still loaded to pressure levels appropriate to guns of that period.

The tale about being loaded down for early top-break revolvers is also baloney, there never was a top-break revolver made for this cartridge. All S&W, H&R, I.J., Hopkins & Allen, etc. .32 caliber revolvers were chambered for .32 S&W, which is not the same cartridge as .32 S&W Long.

.32 ACP. Yes, you can shoot this in .32 S&W Long revolvers. In spite of being called "rimless" it is not. .32 ACP is a semi-rimmed cartridge.

Other cartridges which can be used are .32 S&W, .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt, although any of these will be both more difficult to find, and more expensive than .32 S&W Long if you do, so there would be no point. These are all documented in S&W advertising and box lid information, so if you are tempted to argue don't, you will lose.

 

[I'm3rd]

The "model numbers" were started in 1957, and heat treat was started long before that..

Thanks so much Richard, that's just what I was hoping to see. I can now feel much better about handloading the old blackpowder round using updated loading data without being afraid I might lose a couple of fingers, or much worse an eye. Thanks also to all you other folks who responded to my questions. I'm learning more about the Smith and the round than I thought I would, you folks are a wealth of information.

OK, it's gettin on toward bedtime here in the GA mountains for old folks like myself, I'll check the thread again tomorrow to see if there's more good stuff for me to learn about.

 

[I'm3rd]

.32 ACP. Yes, you can shoot this in .32 S&W Long revolvers. In spite of being called "rimless" it is not. .32 ACP is a semi-rimmed cartridge.

Other cartridges which can be used are .32 S&W, .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt, although any of these will be both more difficult to find, and more expensive than .32 S&W Long if you do, so there would be no point. These are all documented in S&W advertising and box lid information, so if you are tempted to argue don't, you will lose.

I know the .32acp case is semi-rimless, but It seems to me that it would still seat so far into the chamber that the firing pin might not reach far enough to fire it reliably. But since you're a gunsmith who ought to know all about these things I won't argue about it. Because like you say I would no doubt lose, and I'm just glad to learn how the acp round can work in a revolver. I have owned several Colt .32acp pistols and one Nazi war trophy .32 over the past 56 years since I became old enough (18) to buy guns in FL without a parent's written permission, but I never learned anything about using the acp round in a revolver until now.

 

[Steve C]

Here is some data on using the Speer 60gr GDHP in the .32 S&W Long.
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=449e5c14a97dd6fe#cid=449E5C14A97DD6FE&id=449E5C14A97DD6FE!172 About as good as you can get for the .32 S&W Long round.

 

[Hondo44]

I know the .32acp case is semi-rimless, but It seems to me that it would still seat so far into the chamber that the firing pin might not reach far enough to fire it reliably.

The chamber is just big enough for the cartridge case body to fit in. So if the rim is even only .005" larger in diameter than the case body it still won't go in the chamber any further than if the rim was an 1/8" larger.

As long as the rim is any amount larger than the case body, it will seat in the chamber to the same depth as a .32 long.

 

[I'm3rd]

Thanks Hondo, looks like my ammo problem has more than one solution. I now have data for a modernized and more effective .32 Long round and can also use .32acp factory rounds such as the 60 grain Silvertip which has a good reputation with many LEOs according to a couple of local LEOs I have talked with. I'm beginning to like this site, lots of helpful people here.

 

[sureshotbob]

Alk8944 You are wrong sir I do have a near mint 6 shot H.&R. auto ejector top break that is chambered for .32 S&W long & short !!!

 

[I'm3rd]

Here is some data on using the Speer 60gr GDHP in the .32 S&W Long.
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=449e5c14a97dd6fe#cid=449E5C14A97DD6FE&id=449E5C14A97DD6FE!172 About as good as you can get for the .32 S&W Long round.

That 231 data looks promising. I think I'll start with 10 % less than max and work up to the recommended charge if I don't find any signs of excess pressure in my particular gun. I have used 231 for quite a few years and found it to be a very good propellent for .45acp and .38spcl handgun ammo, so it should also be good for modernized .32 Long. I have plenty of it on hand so I may try it first when I get the bullets I ordered. I know that there are many new propellants on the market nowdays that I haven't used, but I stocked up on my old standbys when Obama was elected and they still do the job for me.

 

[Hondo44]

Alk8944 You are wrong sir I do have a near mint 6 shot H.&R. auto ejector top break that is chambered for .32 S&W long & short !!!

That's a fact!

....so if [he is] tempted to argue don't, [he] will lose.

 

[Malysh]

Here's some informal testing I did with Sellier & Bellot 32 S&W Long (aka 32 Colt New Police), and some Remington 32 Long ammo recently.

Here's the results for a 5 shot group of Remington 98 gr. and a 5 shot group of Sellier & Bellot 100 gr.

Remington 98 gr. lead round nose
Muzzle Velocity/ Ft. Lbs. Energy
652 f.p.s./ 93 ft.lbs.
689 f.p.s./ 103 ft.lbs.
678 f.p.s./ 100 ft.lbs.
677 f.p.s./ 100 ft.lbs.
703 f.p.s./ 108 ft.lb.s
Average muzzle velocity (5 shots) - 680 f.p.s.
Average foot lbs. of energy (5 shots) - 101 ft.lbs.


Sellier & Bellot 100 gr. lead flat point (round nose)
Muzzle Velocity/ Ft. Lbs. Energy
763 f.p.s./ 129 ft.lbs.
798 f.p.s./ 141 ft.lbs.
766 f.p.s./ 130 ft.lbs.
804 f.p.s./ 144 ft.lbs.
846 f.p.s./ 159 ft.lbs.
Average muzzle velocity (5 shots) - 795 f.p.s.
Average foot lbs. of energy (5 shots) - 140 ft.lbs.

I did some informal researching in various older reloading manuals that were hand-me-downs from my friend, including Speer, Hornady, etc., and the tables in the classic Smith's "Pistols and Revolvers of the World". The average/standard listing for the classic 32 Colt New Police and the identical S&W 32 Long rounds with 98 gr. bullets are 705 f.p.s. delivering 108 ft.lbs. of energy. Pretty anemic.

The S&B round was the highest velocity and ft.lbs. advertised anywhere on the internet compared to Remington, Winchester, Magtech, etc. The 2nd hotest performing brand advertised was the Magtech which one of our members recommended, but I did not purchase any of it.
Neither the Remington or the Sellier & Bellot shot quite as fast or delivered quite as much energy as they advertised at (which I expected). The Remington advertised at 705 f.p.s. and 115 ft. lbs. The Sellier & Bellot advertised at 886 f.p.s. and 174 ft.lbs. I expected both brands would chrono at a little less than advertised claims. My main interest in doing these tests were to see if the S&B ammo came close to their claims because the f.p.s. and ft.lbs. they claimed made the round a little more viable as a close range self defense rd. to me. After all, standard 38 Special goes at about 780 f.p.s. and gets about 195 ft.lbs. But, the 38 Special does have an advantage in a larger cross sectional density.

I am happy to report that the Sellier & Bellot ammo is indeed much "hotter" than any other brand's advertised claims, and is a better self defense round in this loading than the other ammo makers offer.
The figures I reported from the S&B ammo are definitely higher enough compared to the standard offerings citing well established averages for this old chambering. Therefore, to me it is worth buying instead of Remington, Winchester, etc. I initially ordered two boxes of 50 rds. I think I will order two more to make sure I have a good supply of it. It also has the added feature of having a flat nose for us Colt fans instead of the round nose profile of the S&W 32 long lead round nose that everybody else makes. But that adds nothing to performance, of course.

Tenths of decimals were rounded off from f.p.s. and ft.lbs. of energy for this casual report.

 

[Hearsedriver]

I tried the Sellier & Bellot and found it to be very inaccurate. I was all over the place on the target. The Remington shot much better for me and was much cleaner. The S&B is some dirty ammo. I would love to find someone to custom load about 100 rounds of good .32 S&W L for self defense.

 

[Hondo44]

Hornady custom loads.