Military Discipline

[DeathGrip]

I wasn't allowed to wear my BDU's off post. That didn't bother me a bit. Those things were hot. I felt much more comfy in my own clothes.
I did notice that that the Guard and Reserves weren't to tight.
I was aviation and we weren't always perfect.
I got in more trouble for my mustache than anything.I had never shaved it before basic and haven't done so since.Sorry, I just couldn't do the Hitler thing. I'm a Southern Man.

 

[sigp220.45]

I was just happy when let us go to the drive thru at Mickey D's in our fatigues.

It's pretty weird seeing guys in BDUs at Home Depot.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The Army at least - the Navy has somewhat loosened up camo wear regs recently for the same reason - wants people out and about doing their shopping, running errands, etc wearing Army camo. It's a good advertisement for the Army, shows the Army presence in the community, and lets people interact with soldiers. They've also gotten rid of berets and gone to the patrol cap in the Army for general wear. It was/is useful and popular.

Flying in uniform is to a certain extent encouraged for the same reason. Shows the flag so to speak.

The Marines technically have a third type of camo - there's very limited issue of Multicam for those assigned to Socom. Though Multicam is more of an Army thing

Navy folks assigned to the Marines used to wear Marine camo, and some still do (Corpsman on active assignment). But Navy personnel merely assigned to a Marine base now wear their own camo. That was partly the wishes of the Marines - who didn't want non Marines in MarPat, and partly the wishe of the Navy who wanted their sailors to be distinctive.

Flight suits as a fashion statement by aviation related folks... well various WW2 items of flying gear that weren't proper uniform still ended up worn regularly. It's how aviators show pride.

Anyway... society and all that really crumbled when the barbarian custom of wearing pants instead of proper togas took over. Then there was the even worse invention of the printing press, and pretty soon books were written in vulgar tongues and not in proper Latin. There, we traced that trend of decay back to its roots.

 

[jdh]

0530 take fresh set of OG-107 Cotton Sateens out of locker being careful not to cut ones self on the starched creases, force legs carefully in to the pants leaving as much of the crease intact as possible. Unbutton the left shirt pocket and force ID card into pocket disturbing starch as little as possible.
0550 waddle to company formation area bending knees as little as possible to prevent wrinkles and keep as much of the crease as possible.
0600 Formation
0615 Chow Hall, Dribble undercooked scrambled eggs down from of shirt.
0630 Back to barracks to change shirt.
0700 report to motor pool for motor stables.
0800 By this time in the Fort Sill summer your freshly starched OG-107s are sweat soaked and limp, your spit shine is scuffed to the bare leather from crawling around under a deuce and a half, and your fatigue cap looks like it has been dunked in the waste oil bucket.

AHHHHHHHHH the good ole days.

I have had soldiers on my team, squad, section, platoon that you would have thought looked like Joe **** the Rag Man but could burn through the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks and score perfect along with performing MOS related task blind folded with one hand tied behind their back. I have had soldiers that were Pretty. They looked lie they belonged on the recruiting poster. Problem was they couldn't perform to save their lives. Most of the soldiers I had the pleasure to serve with were somewhere in between the two. However, when the nut cutting comes give me a platoon full of the first.

Why did you not starch BDU's? Anybody?
Because it made them light up the IR scope like a neon sign.

Why the change from Spit shine boots to rough texture no polish boots?
The polished smooth leather boots had a higher radar signature. It was easier to detect the troops wearing them with personnel detecting radars being developed in the 80s. As were troops wearing starched cotton uniforms.

Technology is a driving force in uniform changes. It is not all a lack of discipline.

 

[safearm]

Why did you not starch BDU's? Anybody?
Because it made them light up the IR scope like a neon sign.

Why the change from Spit shine boots to rough texture no polish boots?
The polished smooth leather boots had a higher radar signature. It was easier to detect the troops wearing them with personnel detecting radars being developed in the 80s. As were troops wearing starched cotton uniforms.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Everyone in my unit had field uniforms and garrison uniforms, even when (for the short time the entire US military was) wearing the same woodland camo pattern BDUs.

When we prepared for Desert Shield/Storm and later OEF/OIF, no one starched their DCUs, although we did prep them with insect repellent, and the suede boots went out without any modification.

There is a place for field uniforms and garrison uniforms, and I don't buy the argument that when the country is at war, everyone needs to look like they are serving on the front lines. Wearing flight suits, ACUs, ABUs, BDUs, etc., in the Pentagon and senior (general officer) headquarters is dumb! And when the senior leaders do it, it allows the rest of the military to act the same way.

 

[11B Lifer]

Wrong

I work for DA-and I'm a retired Infantry Officer-My son is an Airborne Artillery Officer with three combat tours-three close frioends of the familiy are NCOs in various branches-and I work with a retired senior Air Force NCO and a number of retired Army NCOs. The soldiers in today's military are disciplined-tough-capable. And you know what? They always have been-In the mid '70s a Captain in the advanced course stated that the soldiers weren't as good as they had been during Vietnam-he was told that he had no right to command troops (he's lucky he wasn't slugged)-It's this way-being critical of these kids who put their lives on the line is the epitome of arrogance.

 

[mac2]

I don't want to come off as disagreeing with the OP and other posters here. I don't. I miss seeing the old spit an polish of military personnel in dress uniforms when they are off base, but I can tell you that under those BDU's and Fatigues or whatever they call them today, are some of the finest young men and women you will ever meet.

The old saying that clothes don't make the man or in this case woman, has never been more true than it is with our service men and women today.

They are spectacular.

There are some awesome acts of courage being performed in Afghanistan, not least by the bomb disposal units - one medal winner personally disarmed over 100 bombs. The level of fitness for UK infantry is olympic level - fighting in harsh terrain in 40-50 degree heat with 80-100 pounds of kit/body armour. Phenomenal. And they WANT to be there, fully believing in what they're doing - there was a waiting list to go to Afghanistan. If there's one reason to support the mission, it's the people taking part in it. Only Terry will benefit from failure.

I think they're perfectly entitled to wear what they want in Afghanistan and grow beards etc.

 

[mac2]

Am I the only one who remembers the 1973-1976 era when kids who had been caught with a joint were offered the choice by the judge to "Either enlist or I'll send yer arse to jail for 3-5 years!"

Then they were sent to S.E. Asia where the stuff grew wild
Two of my pot smoking buddies came back full blown smack addicts ....

It is a much better system now than it was 35 years ago regardless of the clothing.

All coming out now isn't it?

 

[jdh]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Everyone in my unit had field uniforms and garrison uniforms, even when (for the short time the entire US military was) wearing the same woodland camo pattern BDUs.

When we prepared for Desert Shield/Storm and later OEF/OIF, no one starched their DCUs, although we did prep them with insect repellent, and the suede boots went out without any modification.

There is a place for field uniforms and garrison uniforms, and I don't buy the argument that when the country is at war, everyone needs to look like they are serving on the front lines. Wearing flight suits, ACUs, ABUs, BDUs, etc., in the Pentagon and senior (general officer) headquarters is dumb! And when the senior leaders do it, it allows the rest of the military to act the same way.

When we were first issued Battle Dress Uniforms we were told starching would result in consequences. Several of the garrison soldiers found out the hard way that meant Article 15 proceedings. You can make yourself presentable without being charged with destruction of government property. There were bins full of starched BDUs at the DRMO a few months after the roll out, BTW.

Still, I don't care what you do to your utility uniform in the Texas/Oklahoma summer heat and humidity by noon they all look soggy and limp.

OH, I almost forgot the crys that the Army was going to go to hell in a hand basket when the OG-107s were changed from the pure cotton cotton sateen to a permanent press cotton polyester blend.

 

[monet61]

I can honestly say that all I wanted was to be at sea. I didn't give a rip about what we were wearing. They told us what to wear, we wore it. They wanted liberty cards, I carried one. I even traded with guys that didn't want to go on shakedowns or even be the PO in charge of getting spaces ready.I liked it.
A LOT.. If I hadn't decided that I wanted to go into LE, I never would have left.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

Early last year I spent 6 weeks down in Missouri dealing with the Army, the last two weeks were spent on base at Fort Leonard Wood. Even though I was in civilian clothes the whole time, after all I am a civilian, I was called sir more times during that short time span than I had been in my entire life. I received a lot of "Good Morning, Good Afternoon of Good Evening Sir, simply in passing, which took a lot of getting used to. I have worn a Military haircut for most of my life, so I did kinda fit in.

Our son was transferred to two other Hospitals, other than Fort Wood's, and while at Barnes West in St. Louis one of his nurses kept getting the giggles, then explained why. She said to my son "You keep calling me ma'am." He replied "Yes ma'am?"

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I realize it is poor form for the soldiers of one generation to criticize those of another, suffice to say that the men I served with 1967-1971 were just as good soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen as this country has ever had, of those who served in Vietnam I will state that they were poorly trained and badly led.
Getting back to the uniforms, I am very much an "Old School" type who believes in dressing for time and place and for the work at hand. Camo BDUs in the Navy-give me a break.
Someone mentioned Zumwalt. IIRC he changed the Navy uniforms so everyone wore a CPO style saucer cap and blouse. The CPOs objected because it took away from some of their distinctions, the rank file said they prefered bell bottoms with a "Donald Duck" hat.

 

[El Biblioitecario]

I have a theory that some senior officers affect field uniforms in garrison because it makes them feel less REMF-ified.

As has been pointed out by many others, when officers show up at formal functions uniformed to serve on a work detail, one can't expect much of the troopies. Just today I was looking at the Davis-Monothan base paper. The front page had a picture of the Captain-General of Poland or some such dignatary arriving for a visit. He was wearing a class A service uniform. The field grade airplane drivers greeting him were wearing coveralls.

In a democracy the military--for better or worse--reflects the society from which it has drawn, and that society has experieced several decades of slobbing down. I see young men dressed like ragpickers...and realize that they learned this behavior from their fathers.

I"ved fantasized that if I were president, I'd send the next general who showed up at the White house in work clothes home to get into the proper uniform...it would only take once for the word to get out. But the horror is, that whatever the president's party or politics, how many have ever been in the military to know what would be appropriate?

 

[ChuckS1]

Living just south of Quantico and with commuting distance of the Pentagon and FT Belvoir, I see Marines and soldiers every day. I don't what service members you complainers see, but the Marines and soldiers I see certainly don't fit your descriptions of being ill-disciplined or sloppy. I get a salute every time I go through the Quantico gate, even though I'm retired and no longer in uniform. The uniforms are pressed and clean, haircuts are high and tight (even the soldiers) and I for one don't understand what the concern is. Sounds like a bunch of old farts complaining that there aren't any more starched fatigues and spit shine boots.

My wife was activated after 9/11 and spent 5 years in the Pentagon and Kuwait. At the Pentagon, the Army uniform was ACUs until last year, when the Army returned to the Class B and Class A uniforms for everyday wear. Granted, the Army made, IMHO, a really stupid decision to do away with the green Class A uniform and replace it with dress blues, but ACUs are no longer the duty uniform in the Pentagon.

After my 20 years of wearing fatigues and BDUs, let me tell you that I appreciate the fact that ACUs aren't starched and that the days of spit shined boots are gone.

 

[enfield]

The Marines are the same, but it's not the same Army I was in.

 

[cowart]

Is camo the only issued uniform now?

Its not just the military that is crazy for camo. I used to work at a national laboratory, and the security guard force there always wore camo. But their sole task was to safeguard big gray concrete buildings. The camo outfits made them very conspicuous in that environment.

 

[starman041]

My daughter is an Intelligence officer in the Navy. When she was assigned to a FA18 fighter squadron the daily uniform was a flight suit.

Currently, she is assigned to the Mine and Anti-submarine Warfare Command, where the uniform of the day is blue berrys (Navy ACU).

I was proud she qualified with the M-9, especially since most Navy officers are not required to qualify. Of course her Dad and brother were/are Law Enforcement officers and firearms instructors. No pressure there!

Most of our military folks are not in the public view while working. They might as well be comfortable. I do agree that the ACU type uniform does not look as sharp when worn off base though.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

I married a German girl from Wiesbaden. There used to be a pretty good sized U.S. military base there, as well as the large USAF base at Ramstein. When we visited Germany back in 1989, several of the young troopers, in civillian clothes as well as in uniform, addressed me as "Sir", and asked my wife and I if we wanted their seats on the (civillian) busses. I had been out of the service for nearly 10 years, but still wore a (modified) "high and tight", and dress conservatively. My wife was amazed and confused by this behavior - and she didn't buy my story that my legend preceeded us - so I had to tell her that these young people probably thought I was a new officer (horrors - I worked for a living) with his lady. I was very pleased at how well-spoken and polite these young people were, and they were certainly serving as good American ambassadors.

Best regards,

Dave

 

[mkk41]

My daughter is an Intelligence officer in the Navy. When she was assigned to a FA18 fighter squadron the daily uniform was a flight suit.

NO , No , no!

The flight suit is NOT a uniform! It's protective gear (nomex) and should not be worn by anyone except for 'gold wing' wearing aircrews (pilots , NFOs , aircrewmen) on active flight status and the 'ready' crew. A non-aviator wearing a flightbag is just more gender blind , fem-coddling , PC bullcrap!

Unless you have EARNED the right to wear GOLD WINGS , you DO NOT have the right to wear a flight suit or flight jacket.

 

[imjin138]

I've read a lot of the posts in this thread, when I went in the Army still wore Olive drab fatigues and Khakis, I loved the Khaki uniform, especially with bloused jump boots which I was authorised to wear.

The BDU's came in about 83-84 and no ironing wash and wear were the instructions given to us. However if you wanted to look good you still ironed and starched them, just like the old cotton fatigues and the OD's. Those of us that wore the green baseball cap wore our rank and unit crest. The older NCO's wore what we called the Graf cap a different style of ball cap and they took really good care of those because they were irreplacable.

I think Reagan changed the uniform standards when the Army adopted the geen shirt class B uniform and stopped issueing the khakis I wore mine until the grandfather date elapsed. I also wore the Garrison cap with glider patch with ride. I had a bus drivers cap too but saved it for special ocasions.

I bought my own dress blues and wore them with pride.

Probably back in the 50's they lamented the loss of the brown shoe Army. too. Off post we were not allowed to wear fatigues or BDU's except to stop for gas or milk.

I always thought we should have two armies one for parade and one for field, I know that is not the right idea so I shined my boots every day and ironed my uniform in Korea I had a 50 year old house boy do that stuff for me.

The Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen of today probably are just as proud of their uniforms as we were of ours.