CCW on Indian Reservations

[357larry]

I was wondering if anyone has any experiences, good or bad, with concealed carry on an Indian reservation.

I live close to and work on an Indian reservation. The powers that be say no concealed carry on the reservation. However, when it comes to criminal jurisdiction, the Tribal Courts only have authority over Indians. The Tribal Police can still arrest and charge non-Indians with a crime but it has to be done according to State Statute through the County District Court (cross deputazation agreement). Our dysfunctional Tribal Council has not and will not pass any law to allow concealed carry on the reservation.

I have been told that should anyone who is licensed to carry be arrested for concealed carry on the reservation and charged through the District Court, the Judge will dismiss the charges as the District Court has no authority to enforce Tribal law while State law allows for concealed carry.

I have not heard of any such instances taking place but it proposes some interesting possibilities. I just wanted to hear if anyone has any experience with this.

 

[venomballistics]

ummm bad career move. Most of the old treaties would call that an act of war

 

[hiram2005]

Weeeellllllll, I will say this, I have done it. I do know the Nation does not allow CCW. It is according to the laws of the particular tribe. I believe they all say no.

I have also heard that many times it depends upon the Tribal officer you are involved with at the time, some will look the other way and some won't.

 

[OK Hog Shooter]

Are there any posted signs, as in "Ghost Busters", that would suggest no congealed carry? Like the red ring with a diagonal slash and a gun in the middle? In Oklahoma any business or property owner has the right to not allow guns on the premises as long as they post an appropriate sign where it is clearly visible.

 

[357larry]

All of the Tribal buildings have the signs. I know they have signs posted on the roads advising that you are entering a reservation but I don't recall if they say anything about Tribal law being enforced.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Here in Arizona it depends on Tribal law. Some Tribes recognize the Arizona permit while other do not. For the most part Indian tribal lands are sovereign territory to the Indians, and US Constitutional laws do not apply. Walmart and other name brand stores have built a stores on Tribal lands and I do not shop there as I refuse to give up my Constitutional rights. If you are carrying where a Tribe says it is illegal, then you could be placing yourself in danger of arrest and great expense for defense. There was a case not long ago where a woman was injured at a Indian casino and tried to sue for damages. She had to file her case in the Tribal court using Tribal recommended attorneys...US Civil courts were out of the question. One guess on how it turned....she lost her case after great expense.

Personally I avoid doing anything on Tribal lands. Traveling on State highways through their lands does offer some protection, but once you are off the highway you are in their jurisdiction.

 

[357larry]

That is interesting Lee, as most Tribes who participate in class III gaming have a gaming compact with their respective states. All of the compacts that I have seen provide for tort remedies through civil courts outside of the Tribal Courts. The exception would be if the casino in question was a classII facility where no compact would be required.

 

[1 old 0311]

Are there any posted signs, as in "Ghost Busters", that would suggest no congealed carry? Like the red ring with a diagonal slash and a gun in the middle? In Oklahoma any business or property owner has the right to not allow guns on the premises as long as they post an appropriate sign where it is clearly visible.

Just to further confuse things Indiana also has the 'signs' in some stores but they carry NO weight and are really just a suggestion.

My bank has a 'sign.' When I went in to open an account I told the manager I was LEGALLY armed and would be every time I came in. He said "Don't sweat it."

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

That is interesting Lee, as most Tribes who participate in class III gaming have a gaming compact with their respective states.

Here is a link to the story:

What happens if you file a claim against a casino in Arizona?

 

[357larry]

Lee, I looked up both of the facilities mentioned in the article and they are class III casino's. I looked up their gaming compacts and was amazed that the wording in them left it up to the Tribes as to how they would handle claims for injuries. I am surprised that the State of Arizona would have let this get by them. Most States make it a priority to have provisions for tort remedies that lay outside of the Tribal Courts.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Larry...this discussion just points out the confusion when doing anything on Tribal land, and that confusion is different through out the US. For me that is enough to avoid any dealings with Tribal businesses and casinos. Since it is illegal for me to carry on my local Tribes property I will drive another 40 miles to do my shopping, I do not need the hassle of dealing with any Tribal police and their screwy laws.

On another note, I have heard on my scanner more than once when the local Sheriff has pulled over a Tribal member, run his ID and a Warrant pops up. The Sheriff can not arrest the tribal member and puts in a call for a Tribal unit to pick him up. They said they were too busy, or unavailable, so after much time wasted the guy was let go. This has happened twice recently and is probably just a common practice with the Tribe. The frustration in the Sheriff's voice told the story...Tribal laws and practices need to be changed.

 

[357larry]

I wholeheartily agree.

 

[CowboyKen]

I have a question about this issue.

Let's say you are detained and/or taken into custody, because you are armed or for any other reason, by the tribal police. Would they confiscate your, otherwise legally possessed, forearm in the process? Assuming they did, how would you go about getting your firearm back?

Ken

 

[357larry]

Here at my location, a person could talk with the County District Court Judge before any official action. From the sounds of it, the Judge would schedule a plea hearing and would request that all evidence be presented at that hearing. If he dismisses the case because it is outside of his jurisdiction, he could then order the evidence, I.E. your gun, be returned to you forthwith. Unfortunately for me, in this instance, I am Indian, so the Tribal Court has criminal jurisdiction over me. Non Indians seem to have an advantage here as the Tribal Court can not hear a criminal case against them.

 

[blujax01]

Just to further confuse things Indiana also has the 'signs' in some stores but they carry NO weight and are really just a suggestion.

...."

Where do you get that? Are you telling me that if I have a store and a sign that says NO GUNS ALLOWED you think you can come onto my property with a gun?

This is how the law reads in Ohio (and in all likelihood, Indiana as well as every other state):

2923.126" (3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.

 

[venomballistics]

I have a question about this issue.

Let's say you are detained and/or taken into custody, because you are armed or for any other reason, by the tribal police. Would they confiscate your, otherwise legally possessed, forearm in the process? Assuming they did, how would you go about getting your firearm back?

Ken

if they confiscated your forearm you might have grounds for litigation
now a firearm on the other hand, gets into some old law drafted into the treaties that formed these reservations. Unlike the constitution, they tend to fight for, and maintain the provisions in the treaties. If a particular reservation is cool with it, by all means pack at will. if not, or you do not know, your on their turf and subject to their law. Ignorance of such can and will get you pinched, often times just because they enjoy educating outsiders.
However old and even odd the treaties may be, its in your best interest to read and respect it.
I had the sense to stay clear of them since I was a kid ... I see absolutely no reason to change

 

[jlrhiner]

In Missouri, it's not criminal trespass. If you carry into a place that's posted and are discovered, they may ask you to leave. If you refuse, then law enforcement may be called and trespass applies.

In order for a location to be legally posted, the sign must conform to the specs set forth in the law. Anything else is not valid.

 

[therevjay]

Indian tribes are sovergn (however you spell it) nations. And if you are on their land I would assume you are subject to thrir laws. You might beat the charge but your day (probably quite a few of your days) will be ruined. And I'm willing to bet your wallet will sustain light to moderate lawyer damage. Who needs the hassle?

 

[blujax01]

In Missouri, it's not criminal trespass. If you carry into a place that's posted and are discovered, they may ask you to leave. If you refuse, then law enforcement may be called and trespass applies.

In order for a location to be legally posted, the sign must conform to the specs set forth in the law. Anything else is not valid.

I guess I have a problem with someone who would try to use a vague interpretation of a law to attempt to circumvent something I clearly intend not be allowed on my private property.
I respect others wishes when I am on their land, why would anyone not return the courtesy?
And this has absolutely nothing to do with firearms, per se. I am a CC holder and carry daily. However, I do not carry on property that is posted, whether or not the sign is written in the King's English, on the proper parchment, and in the correct shade of the approved color.

The same logic and common sense would apply if my property was posted to disallow fishing in my pond (if I had one) or hunting on my land (if I had some).

We're not stupid. We shouldn't act as if we are.

 

[1 old 0311]

Where do you get that? Are you telling me that if I have a store and a sign that says NO GUNS ALLOWED you think you can come onto my property with a gun?

This is how the law reads in Ohio (and in all likelihood, Indiana as well as every other state):

2923.126" (3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.

In Indiana, as I wrote, you can even carry into a bank with the 'sign.' Ohio has a LOT of strange CCW laws, I have family there.
Here "CONCEALED" means CONCEALED, not that strange thing you have about it has to be on a seat, or seatbelt or something, also you don't need to inform LEO's about your CCW. We also have LIFETIME CCW permits for like $130.
You guys are better than California but still have a LONG way to go.