1911 for everyday carry?

[8thring]

1911

I first want to say that I love my 1911 but.....

Yesterday I took a really good class called Handgun Self Defense. This was 9 hours at an outdoor range in front of a target with three instructors and 500 rounds of ammo. It seemed like every other pistol in the class was a 1911. They had Wilson Combat, Kimbers, S&Ws, Sig. I could have payed off my wifes car with all the high dollar steel.
After going toe to toe with these 1911s for a day, with my little Glock 19, I will wear my Glock 19 proudly and keep my Colt Government in the safe with the wheel guns. I cannot see one single advantage that the 1911 offers over a modern pistol like the M&P, Glock and XDs. They are heavy, have a manual safety and a limited magazine capacity. Looking at the targets I could tell that many of these shooters went out and bought these expensive relics and did not know how to shoot them, much less fight with them.

nothing more intimidating than a big ugly plain no frills just out of the box goverment model. i dislike plastic guns but have 4 glocks: 30,26, 23, and 20c. they are light, compact and have the power. great for summer, beach and foul weather carry.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Weight is not a factor unless it is several ounces different.

Another issue is size. Comparing guns requires all things to be equal such as barrel length.

It seemed to be a factor when you were claiming a Glock was heavier. A "full size Glock" Glock 21 (is that what you were thinking about?) weighs 26.28oz. The barrel length on a Glock 21 is 4.6in. DW V-Bob has a barrel length of 4.25in. and weighs 35.2oz. That's over a half pound difference with the DW having a shorter barrel. //// I think the lesson here is that the owner of the DW V-Bob, Minnehaha, actually knows what he is talking about in regard to his guns.

You also asserted that there are several 1911s in the S&W line that are lighter than a Glock. I guess you mean the Glock 21? What are the many S&W 1911 in the line that are lighter?

I also noticed there was no reply to my post asking your background in relation to firearms.

Yesterday you asked Bob what his background was. Did you mean Phil when you were addressing Bob? I'll go back and find the questions that you addressed to Bob.

have you ever shot, held or shot a S&W 1911?

Yes, several. But I have never held or shot a S&W 1911 that was lighter that a Glock. Please list the many S&W 1911 that are lighter than a Glock (Whatever Glock you are talking about) and I'll make a point to give them a try.

Have you ever saw any of the photos of injured hands from a Glock Kaboom? I can supply you with a few if you like?

Have not seen the pictures. Don't bother.

Have you ever carried a firearm professionally or been in a must shoot situation?

No. If I had, would that make A DW V-Bob lighter than it is, or make a Glock heavier than many S&W 1911s?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

All my reasons you and another felt not to be a factor happened to people that found it to be a factor.

Really?

Let's stay focused here and take a look, just one at a time, at what was said to be not a factor.

[[[[[ For the most part, a 1911 will increase in value while a Glock will never increase in worth. Not a factor in a gun fight ]]]]]

Could you explain why the resale value of a 1911 over that of a Glock is a factor during a gun fight?

 

[oldman45]

It seemed to be a factor when you were claiming a Glock was heavier. A "full size Glock" Glock 21 (is that what you were thinking about?) weighs 26.28oz. The barrel length on a Glock 21 is 4.6in. DW V-Bob has a barrel length of 4.25in. and weighs 35.2oz. That's over a half pound difference with the DW having a shorter barrel. //// I think the lesson here is that the owner of the DW V-Bob, Minnehaha, actually knows what he is talking about in regard to his guns.

You also asserted that there are several 1911s in the S&W line that are lighter than a Glock. I guess you mean the Glock 21? What are the many S&W 1911 in the line that are lighter?



Yesterday you asked Bob what his background was. Did you mean Phil when you were addressing Bob? I'll go back and find the questions that you addressed to Bob.

have you ever shot, held or shot a S&W 1911?

Yes, several. But I have never held or shot a S&W 1911 that was lighter that a Glock. Please list the many S&W 1911 that are lighter than a Glock (Whatever Glock you are talking about) and I'll make a point to give them a try.

Have you ever saw any of the photos of injured hands from a Glock Kaboom? I can supply you with a few if you like?

Have not seen the pictures. Don't bother.

Have you ever carried a firearm professionally or been in a must shoot situation?

No. If I had, would that make A DW V-Bob lighter than it is, or make a Glock heavier than many S&W 1911s?

Phil, in order to understand carry, one has to do so.

I respect your honesty in admissions. Many will put down a gun when they have never shot one or even held one. Get any full size 1911 S&W and I think you will walk away from Glock. There are reasons why they are out of stock everywhere. I began buying mine after shooting one that belonged to a friend. Then those shooting mine bought some as well.

We need not discuss weights. I pocket with a dollar or so of change will offset the weight. An ounce or two on a belt will not be noticed. Thinner is better concealment. S&W has the edge there. A 1911 is a point & shoot gun. A Glock is not. A S&W is pretty accurate out of the box. A Glock needs a little help in that area.

Did you know it is often impossible in shootings to determine which Glock fired a particular shot? Glock owners may have a difficult time proving their innocence with balistitics. S&W does not have that problem.

If one likes Glocks, stay with them. Yet this is a S&W site with some good people and collectors here. I do not feel that S&W should be second place to any brand here.

 

[Packard]

It seemed to be a factor when you were claiming a Glock was heavier. A "full size Glock" Glock 21 (is that what you were thinking about?) weighs 26.28oz. The barrel length on a Glock 21 is 4.6in. DW V-Bob has a barrel length of 4.25in. and weighs 35.2oz. That's over a half pound difference with the DW having a shorter barrel. //// I think the lesson here is that the owner of the DW V-Bob, Minnehaha, actually knows what he is talking about in regard to his guns.

You also asserted that there are several 1911s in the S&W line that are lighter than a Glock. I guess you mean the Glock 21? What are the many S&W 1911 in the line that are lighter?



Yesterday you asked Bob what his background was. Did you mean Phil when you were addressing Bob? I'll go back and find the questions that you addressed to Bob.

have you ever shot, held or shot a S&W 1911?

Yes, several. But I have never held or shot a S&W 1911 that was lighter that a Glock. Please list the many S&W 1911 that are lighter than a Glock (Whatever Glock you are talking about) and I'll make a point to give them a try.

Have you ever saw any of the photos of injured hands from a Glock Kaboom? I can supply you with a few if you like?

Have not seen the pictures. Don't bother.

Have you ever carried a firearm professionally or been in a must shoot situation?

No. If I had, would that make A DW V-Bob lighter than it is, or make a Glock heavier than many S&W 1911s?

Only load 8 rounds in a Glock and it would be lighter than ever.

Glocks are light, strong, and proven. It is the number one police weapon across the nation. I read that something like 65% of all precincts use Glocks.

I do admit that I shot more accurately with my Gold Cup than I do with my Glock, but the Glock it quicker and easier to put into action and requires less training to reach the efficiency than does the 1911. The manual of arms is simpler too.

 

[Animal_Mother556]

I try my hardest to carry a little bit of everything. M&P, Beretta, Sig, 1911, L frame, etc....

I do this to try and maintain a mental proficiency. While carrying a certain firearm, I am always conscious of what it takes to make it go boom (safeties, thumb breaks, etc...).

One of the things that I am aware of while carrying a 1911 (Kimber Custom II, nothing fancy) is that I am confident in making 75 to 100 yard shots with it (from prone or supported). I like THAT part about it. The other pistols, I only feel confidant out to 50 to 75 yards. I think most of the longer range accuracy comes from the nice trigger.

Just my two pence on why I like the 1911.

 

[Packard]

I try my hardest to carry a little bit of everything. M&P, Beretta, Sig, 1911, L frame, etc....

I do this to try and maintain a mental proficiency. While carrying a certain firearm, I am always conscious of what it takes to make it go boom (safeties, thumb breaks, etc...).

One of the things that I am aware of while carrying a 1911 (Kimber Custom II, nothing fancy) is that I am confident in making 75 to 100 yard shots with it (from prone or supported). I like THAT part about it. The other pistols, I only feel confidant out to 50 to 75 yards. I think most of the longer range accuracy comes from the nice trigger.

Just my two pence on why I like the 1911.

I don't agree. If I were to carry a 1911, I would have one full sized and target grade pistol, one combat sized, and one compact. I might also have a little Sig 380 in the same manual of arms.

I believe that keeping within one system means faster responses and more consistent results.

 

[oldman45]

I read that something like 65% of all precincts use Glocks.

You are correct.

However if Ford gave away their cars to any that wanted them and you are on a limited budget, you would be driving one.

Glock virtually gave away their guns to law enforcement. It was a great advertising method. They have now been discovered to have been bribing those in purchasing power to get departments that did not want their free guns. Naturally many departments went to Glock due to free, bribes and tight budgets.

Once citizens saw Glocks in the hands of those carrying daily, the opinion was the gun was the one to own.

Now Glock is in trouble on many fronts legally, financially and in public perception. Nobody can predict what their future holds.

 

[Animal_Mother556]

I believe that keeping within one system means faster responses and more consistent results.

And I believe that is laziness...even dangerous. I want...nay...I NEED to stay proficient with anything I can get my hands on. Anything with some sights and a trigger. Go ahead and limit yourself to one "manual of arms". I don't think many professionals would agree with you.

 

[Animal_Mother556]

You are correct.

However if Ford gave away their cars to any that wanted them and you are on a limited budget, you would be driving one.

Glock virtually gave away their guns to law enforcement. It was a great advertising method. They have now been discovered to have been bribing those in purchasing power to get departments that did not want their free guns. Naturally many departments went to Glock due to free, bribes and tight budgets.

Once citizens saw Glocks in the hands of those carrying daily, the opinion was the gun was the one to own.

Now Glock is in trouble on many fronts legally, financially and in public perception. Nobody can predict what their future holds.

So, is it fair for me to say that your dislike is with the COMPANY? And you are taking out your hatred on the product?

Here's the way I see it: There are beaucoup mellon-farmers out there that are putting rounds through Glocks every day...I am one of them. These pistols are performing fine. Do they have faults? Yes. Do they do what they are supposed to do? Yes. They are relatively cheap, lightweight, come in major calibers, hold lots of ammo, light recoiling, and they are accurate. I have absolutely no problem trusting my life and the lives of my family members to a Glock.

As they say...Haterz be hatin'

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

We need not discuss weights.

If one likes Glocks, stay with them. Yet this is a S&W site with some good people and collectors here. I do not feel that S&W should be second place to any brand here.

Please do not misunderstand. My questions regarding your assertions were not to put any gun in first or second place, but rather to clarify what the heck you were talking about. "We need not discuss weights" pretty much clarifies all of your postings regarding weight in this thread.

 

[Animal_Mother556]

A 1911 is a point & shoot gun. A Glock is not. A S&W is pretty accurate out of the box. A Glock needs a little help in that area.

Did you know it is often impossible in shootings to determine which Glock fired a particular shot? Glock owners may have a difficult time proving their innocence with balistitics. S&W does not have that problem.

If one likes Glocks, stay with them. Yet this is a S&W site with some good people and collectors here. I do not feel that S&W should be second place to any brand here.

Any gun can become "point and shoot" with practice and muscle memory.

I don't know what help a Glock needs for accuracy. They are some of the best shooting guns that I own.

I won't be able to prove my innocence if I shoot someone with a Glock? I'll take my chances...that the other guy won't have a Glock...and if he does, it will be in a different caliber. Now you're just reaching for things, man.

You don't feel that S&W should be second place to any brand "here". What if a similar thread pops up on a Sig forum? Can S&W be second place there?


I feel a lot of hatred for Glocks from you. And that's okay, man...it really is. But, you are definitely in the minority.

 

[oldman45]

Ok folks.

I own a few Glocks. I said often on here in various threads that Glocks work. They shoot as they are designed to do.

They also are filled with problems. They injure shooters. I do not like that part. I carried Glocks for many years.

I also do not feel that S&W is the only gun company or that it is the best gun company. My dedication to S&W is due to: a.) It is an American company, employing American workers. b.) They are good guns.
3.) They build guns for many purposes, fitting many hands and they are safe.

I investigate accidents and crime scenes for a living and been doing so for years. I do not write speeding tickets, chase bank robbers or drive around with co-workers in the car. I do not get to talk about things with co-workers. I cannot discuss my work with family or friends due to possibly tainting a potential jurist.

When I see you, it will be due to you being dead, dying or severely injured. I find the cause of the incident and the facts of the incident. All of which brings me to Glock. Most of the accidental firearm injuries I see come from Glocks such as KaBooms. I am against a company that refuses to fix a problem but rather pay off lawsuits.

Would I shoot my Glocks, yes and I have and do. I would even buy another one if I found the desire.

Yet trying to get a Glock owner to understand that Glocks are not where they are today due to being a great gun is like trying to tell a Pinto owner that they need to fix their gas tanks. Glock bought their popularity and had it not been for the mindset that came with it, people would not be buying Glocks as they do today.

S&W made guns with the internal locks and people cannot get past that. S&W made auto loaders with external extractors and people cannot get over that. Glocks makes guns that blows up in their hands, along with other issues, and nobody cares or even wants to listen.

 

[APS]

oldman45 was there a common caliber in the Glock kabooms?

 

[kennyb]

People use many things as weapons. One man was shot by officers that tried to make them think a cell phone was a gun.

Yet, 40 yrs ago there were fewer missed rounds hitting unintended objects. Officers later traded accuracy for capacity and stopped counting rounds. why should they? They had almost a box of ammo on their belts.

We are seeing more shots per shooting, more rounds missing their mark and more innocents hit, as well as more lawsuits filed. For every action, there is a reaction.

oldman...you may be seeing all these stats that you are quoting in your jurisdiction but thats not so everywhere...there are many LEO'S here with a vast field of exp.you quote many things here with citation to nothing more than your own opinion or field of view

 

[kennyb]

It made the news(which I can attest to telling the story that gets viewers, not the one that happened), the number of shots fired kept changing, best count I heard/read was 5 hits 10 shots, which wasn't bad. I had a member of the department say 13 shots 3 hits to me. One of the news reports said they hit him twice. All in all it was a real charlie foxtrot. I wasn't there so I can't know for sure which story is the 100% accurate one. My point comes back to this: there was a time when you had to make 5 or 6 shots count, I think the hi capacity autos such as Glocks(which is what the West Lafayette police were using that day) are making people more prone to "draw,shoot, aim,shoot"

and there you have it my friend...you relied on something you read and...what?the facts and number of rounds kept changing...based on what you read you formed an opinion as to someone was wrong,untrained,have been issued the wrong sidearm etc.

 

[Animal_Mother556]

, I think the hi capacity autos such as Glocks(which is what the West Lafayette police were using that day) are making people more prone to "draw,shoot, aim,shoot"

I just can't believe that it has come to this....blaming the GUN (the tool) on bad shooting.

Hows abouts the training that these cops are getting? Most cops in my neck of the woods (midwest) don't even like guns. Especially not to the degree where they would go practice on their own. They shoot once a year...qual day.

It's sad. Granted, there are cops that enjoy shooting and take pride in their marksmanship abilities, but there aren't many that I know of...AND they have bad shooting habits because of where they learned to shoot (academy).

If these cops really are more prone to "draw, shoot, aim, shoot" than PLEASE don't blame the gun. It's a training issue. Remember when they try to blame guns for things on the news? And we all sit there and say "What about the little turds parents?! It's their fault not the gun!" That's what I feel like right now.

 

[oldman45]

oldman45 was there a common caliber in the Glock kabooms?

Mostly in .40 but there have been other calibers as well.

What cannot be narrowed down is the ammo. Many people reload their own and when something happens, the gun gets the blame. Would a metal gun be so effected by ammo issues? Likely not as bad but then Glock is the one seen blowing out the bottom of the gun.

Yet the KaBoom is only part of the problems.

And I still would shoot one and not afraid of doing so. The odds are against something bad happening.

 

[oldman45]

oldman...you may be seeing all these stats that you are quoting in your jurisdiction but thats not so everywhere...there are many LEO'S here with a vast field of exp.you quote many things here with citation to nothing more than your own opinion or field of view

I disagree. There are many articles being published, even in law enforcement journals about it. Please examine your department's last few years of shootings and see how many officer fired shots there were. Compare them to those in the revolver years. Some say the age of the officers is also a factor but I do not agree.

The younger officers are moreso the ones involved but several Chiefs and IAD officers are seeing it.

Also being seen is officers being terminated for various reasons. One officer terminated in the local area for crimes he has been charged with was hired by another smaller department. Thirty years ago, that officer would have not been in LE anymore.

LE has changed but many refuse to accept the fact. LE is an honorable profession and nobody goes into it to get rich. But the standards have been lowered over the years.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Yet the KaBoom is only part of the problems.

Are there problems besides the undersupported chamber and the inability to hold the hammer back? They look like they would be pretty nice guns if they made any that fit my hand.