1911 for everyday carry?

[Packard]

I carry my Glock 19 and Norinco M1911 interchangeably. The M1911 is actually easier to carry, as it's thinner.
...

I have two Glocks and three S & W revolvers and one Ruger revolver.

I used to have a Gold Cup.

I don't think you should carry both a single action and a double action only. The divided reflex will slow you down, and there is a greater risk of an accidental discharge if you've been shooting a long DAO and switch to a shorter pull on a 1911.

Switching back and forth between DAO and single action seems a bad idea to me.

 

[venomballistics]

I can think of an instance where reckless discharged should have been applied to a pair of officers in my area. Man was drunkenly driving a lawn mower. When lit up he pointed what turned out to be a BB gun in the officers' direction. No argument on the officers firing; they perceived a threat and justly attempted to neutralize the perp, they however fired 13 shots, hitting him three times, and sending their misses into a parking garage, damaging several vehicles, luckily not hitting any innocent bystanders.

Im not out to step on your neck here but you are probably recounting facts that have been spun in the grapevine before you shared them.
some guy driving a lawn mower in a drunken state .. I can see anyone making a reasonable determination of that on face value so that we can let stand.
turns out he pulls a bb gun .. cant know that it wasnt a 357 till after the smoke clears .. thus the outcome sounds ridiculous.
all the missed shots perforating a parking garage and the vehicles there in ... the only way I can see avoiding the inadvertent installation of airconditioning is if the LEO's absolutely knew they would have to draw and fire well before they made contact. At which point, the same knowledge would have been used to devise a different contact strategy to avoid the gunfight all together.
since clairvoyance isnt a requisite skill for gun fighting no one can choose their line of fire to avoid these things.
I can't hold it against them for doing what they believed needed doing ... however restitution for damages should have been the order of the day. probably out of the estate of the lawnmower man.

 

[cmort666]

If it is a stand-off, then other officers will be there shortly. You would be shocked to see how fast long distances can be covered when an officer calls for assistance in a shots fired call.

I have no expectation of backup or indeed of any assistance. My expectation is that in a deadly force situation, I'm COMPLETELY on my own and that I will have to handle the situation ALONE.

That being the case, I carry one or more extra magazines or speed loaders.

 

[cmort666]

I have two Glocks and three S & W revolvers and one Ruger revolver.

I used to have a Gold Cup.

I don't think you should carry both a single action and a double action only. The divided reflex will slow you down, and there is a greater risk of an accidental discharge if you've been shooting a long DAO and switch to a shorter pull on a 1911.

Switching back and forth between DAO and single action seems a bad idea to me.

I also carry a double action revolver instead of the above at times.

You can't have an accidental discharge if you don't have your finger on the trigger. You shouldn't have your finger on the trigger unless you're shooting somebody. Once I start my trigger squeeze, the time for talk has long ended. Only some extraordinary sign of submission is going to keep my assailant from getting shot, and it better be FAST... probably faster than most humans can achieve or than I could react to. That window of opportunity is so narrow, you could barely slide a piece of typing paper through it.

 

[Packard]

I also carry a double action revolver instead of the above at times.

You can't have an accidental discharge if you don't have your finger on the trigger. You shouldn't have your finger on the trigger unless you're shooting somebody. Once I start my trigger squeeze, the time for talk has long ended. Only some extraordinary sign of submission is going to keep my assailant from getting shot, and it better be FAST... probably faster than most humans can achieve or than I could react to. That window of opportunity is so narrow, you could barely slide a piece of typing paper through it.

I have a 10 meter air pistol. It has a trigger with zero take up and no over travel. The trigger weight is supposed to be 1 pound, but I suspect it is a bit lighter.

I never put my finger in the trigger guard until I am on target. But even then, if I had been shooting one of my CO2 air pistols first I am often startled by the discharge and frequently it is off my intended point of aim.

I don't think it is possible to transition back and forth without the risk of the accidental discharge.

But another risk is the divided reflex. A number of years ago bicycle manufacturers were producing two sets of brake handles on bikes with drop handles. One set on the drop, and one set on the horizontal section. Tests were done and the divided reflex meant slower responses than the single set of brake handles. Divided reflex means you have to first decide what to do (which set of brake handles) and then execute.

The same will occur with shooting. Switch off the safety, then shoot. Or don't switch anything and shoot. Divided reflex. It will slow your down.

 

[cmort666]

I never put my finger in the trigger guard until I am on target. But even then, if I had been shooting one of my CO2 air pistols first I am often startled by the discharge and frequently it is off my intended point of aim.

The discharge is SUPPOSED to be a surprise. If you are exercising the fundamentals, you will hit your target. If not, you probably won't.

 

[oldman45]

I have no expectation of backup or indeed of any assistance. My expectation is that in a deadly force situation, I'm COMPLETELY on my own and that I will have to handle the situation ALONE.

That being the case, I carry one or more extra magazines or speed loaders.

I do not have A problem with someone carrying a spare anything. Lots of things can happen. I lost a Glock mag during the day somewhere. Never knew I had an empty mag well til I got home and took the gun off. I had a spare so no issue there but would I have had time to use if if I needed it. What I question is the motives behind carrying 100 rounds as spares. There are many more things to be concerned about that is apt to happen before needing a tractor-trailer load of ammo.

A doctor told me one time that my added fat was like carrying three bowling balls around all the time. Then he pointed out that things on my belt was the cause of my hip pain. He pulled one of my cuff cases and one of my spare mags and placed them on a scale along with a mag light. He then had me empty my pockets and found three full key rings. One of those went on the scale. It ended up with six pounds of things I was carrying all day around my hip, getting in & out of a car several times a day, going up and down stairs along with many other things. I eliminated the items he said I should and my hip pain went away. If one wants to carry a rocket launcher, they are welcome to do so but over the course of a day, the weight will add up.

 

[oldman45]

I agree with your "not a factor" assessments.
[/QUOTE

Phil, with all due respect, have you ever shot, held or shot a S&W 1911?

Have you ever saw any of the photos of injured hands from a Glock Kaboom? I can supply you with a few if you like?

Have you ever carried a firearm professionally or been in a must shoot situation?

 

[oldman45]

More than a 1/4in less than 1.18in? That would be less than .93in wide... about the width of a LC9 pocket pistol. I have some slim grips at .116in, but that would still make the frame almost exactly an inch on both my Colt and Kimber 1911. The slides are .93, but the thumb safety and slide stops make the pistols significantly wider. How did you get your S&W 1911s to the width of a LC9 pocket pistol? You mentioned ergonomics... Being a good sized fellow, do you really like a grip on your 1911s so thin at less than .93?

What are these many S&W 1911s that are lighter than a Glock 26 at 19.75oz ?

Are you wanting to compare Ford Escorts to Ford Expeditions?

I am talking full size 1911 to full size Glocks and they are thinner.

Drop down to compact S&W 1911 and they are still thinner and lighter. And they do not go Kaboom.

All the S&W 1911 weights are listed at their website. They listed the width until a couple months ago.

Phil, I am not knocking Glocks. I own a few and carried two different models for years by order. They are not the salvation of firearms as many here, including other mods, claim. I also carried a 27 for backup many times when working alone in housing projects. Still have it. Personally I have seen two injuries from Glocks. One was an officer that had a KaBoom on the range during qualifying and he was off work for months recovering. The other was a lady shooter at an indoor range. She was carried off by ambulance with hand injuries. I do not know the extent of her injuries.

KaBooms do not happen often. A local dept has over 600 officers and claim they have had three since 1986. That is a small number of incidents but if you were one of them, you would not feel so happy about it. A 1911 will not go KaBoom. But Glock has been sued many times about them and done nothing to correct them just as Ford did nothing to correct the Pinto gas tanks, figuring it was cheaper to pay damages than repair the condition.

Many times, Glocks have failed during limp wristing. But then that is not a factor to one not effected at the time.

All my reasons you and another felt not to be a factor happened to people that found it to be a factor. The same can be said for the discharges from the Glock trigger catching on a holster or the other things that caused a AD. A 1911 is so full of safeties that any AD is almost going to take stupidity.

Also, as a member of the Glock forum as well, I never have saw a Glock mod endorse other brands. I see it happen here often but the ironic part is none of them acknowledge ever seeing or shooting the S&W lineup they are putting down.

Glocks work. I have stated that many times here. Glocks are ugly and decrease in value and anyone cannot deny that. They also have lots of faults that cannot be overlooked. Police Depts were virtually paid to use Glocks at first. Now the secret is out about that and part of an on-going investigation against Glock, they stopped. Now many of those depts are switching brands and getting away from Glock. None of the Glock supporters seem to mention that either.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

you have obviously never had a weapon pointed your way or been involved in a gunfight...if you had you would know better

Never been fired upon, I have had a knife pulled on me within ten feet(less than half the distance at which the Tueller drill deems that person a clear threat), I kept my head after drawing my weapon an deescalated the situation. I'm not mad that the officers in question missed. I mad that they endangered innocent bystanders by firing so many misses, an I can guarantee that the bb gun was on the ground before even 5 shots were fired. I'm saying that I expect more self control. I'm saying that as I already know that I react as I train, I would have fired two and been in cover trying to align my sights before firing a third. I understand being under high stress, one doesn't think, they go into basic survival mode, or what they've practiced to replace it. These officers clearly hadn't replaced their instincts with proper training. They panicked.

 

[kennyb]

Never been fired upon, I have had a knife pulled on me within ten feet(less than half the distance at which the Tueller drill deems that person a clear threat), I kept my head after drawing my weapon an deescalated the situation. I'm not mad that the officers in question missed. I mad that they endangered innocent bystanders by firing so many misses, an I can guarantee that the bb gun was on the ground before even 5 shots were fired. I'm saying that I expect more self control. I'm saying that as I already know that I react as I train, I would have fired two and been in cover trying to align my sights before firing a third. I understand being under high stress, one doesn't think, they go into basic survival mode, or what they've practiced to replace it. These officers clearly hadn't replaced their instincts with proper training. They panicked.

without being in the middle of the firefight you can guarantee nothing....go back and read my original post...its clear you haven't been in a similar situation

 

[oldman45]

without being in the middle of the firefight you can guarantee nothing....go back and read my original post...its clear you haven't been in a similar situation

People use many things as weapons. One man was shot by officers that tried to make them think a cell phone was a gun.

Yet, 40 yrs ago there were fewer missed rounds hitting unintended objects. Officers later traded accuracy for capacity and stopped counting rounds. why should they? They had almost a box of ammo on their belts.

We are seeing more shots per shooting, more rounds missing their mark and more innocents hit, as well as more lawsuits filed. For every action, there is a reaction.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Im not out to step on your neck here but you are probably recounting facts that have been spun in the grapevine before you shared them.
some guy driving a lawn mower in a drunken state .. I can see anyone making a reasonable determination of that on face value so that we can let stand.
turns out he pulls a bb gun .. cant know that it wasnt a 357 till after the smoke clears .. thus the outcome sounds ridiculous.
all the missed shots perforating a parking garage and the vehicles there in ... the only way I can see avoiding the inadvertent installation of airconditioning is if the LEO's absolutely knew they would have to draw and fire well before they made contact. At which point, the same knowledge would have been used to devise a different contact strategy to avoid the gunfight all together.
since clairvoyance isnt a requisite skill for gun fighting no one can choose their line of fire to avoid these things.
I can't hold it against them for doing what they believed needed doing ... however restitution for damages should have been the order of the day. probably out of the estate of the lawnmower man.

It made the news(which I can attest to telling the story that gets viewers, not the one that happened), the number of shots fired kept changing, best count I heard/read was 5 hits 10 shots, which wasn't bad. I had a member of the department say 13 shots 3 hits to me. One of the news reports said they hit him twice. All in all it was a real charlie foxtrot. I wasn't there so I can't know for sure which story is the 100% accurate one. My point comes back to this: there was a time when you had to make 5 or 6 shots count, I think the hi capacity autos such as Glocks(which is what the West Lafayette police were using that day) are making people more prone to "draw,shoot, aim,shoot"

 

[WIKD]

I'm not going to debate which gun is better, as someone already said it has a lot to do with what's best for you.
However in case anyone is interested last summer I was wondering which of my common carry guns was lightest. I routinely carry a Colt Defender but also carry a Glock 36, with an extra round magazine, and a Glock 19. Fully loaded the Defender and the 19 are within 1/10th of an ounce, in other words almost exactly the same with the 36 being approx 2 pounces less than the others. Is any of that really important, who knows, I still carry the Defender 95% of the time.

 

[Minnehaha]

Glock 26 vs Dan Wesson V-Bob

First, welcome to the Forum and jump in any time with advice, questions or comments.

Now, I am going to ask you to do something for me. Please measure you DW Combat for width. Do the same for your Glock. Your Glock will be thicker. Common sense says thinner is more concealable. Now weigh each of them. The DW will be lighter. Weight is also a factor in concealed carry. Your admission on the trigger is also noted.

So with the scales of equality favoring the DW, why carry the Glock unless you just love ugly guns or figure if it gets lost, then nothing is going to be missed?

Here are the stats for the two:

Glock 26:
Length: 6.29
Width: 1.18
Height: 4.17
Weight: 19.75

Dan Wesson V-Bob
Length: 8.0
Width: 1.45 (includes safety so it's deceiving)
Height: 5.5
Weight: 35.2

The Glock holds 11 rounds of 9MM, and the V-Bob holds 8 of 45ACP. I carry +P short barrel HPs in the Glock which are pretty potent. The Glock is actually a bit wider with the double stack design than the DW if you don't count the DW safely extending out a little, but they are pretty close in width. In all of the other dimensions and in weight the Glock has an advantage.

Just based on my experience with both, the Glock is more comfortable for me to carry (significantly smaller and lighter). I did carry the DW in its' Milt Sparks IWB holster this morning when I met my dad and brother for breakfast just to refresh my memory. It felt big and heavy (but I really do love that handgun, and it is fun to carry it, just not all day every day - especially in the summer).

The Glock isn't an ugly gun (IMO). It is very accurate, 100% reliable, rugged as a rock, and a heck of a lot easier to maintain than a 1911. Also, I have used them both (including a 1911 A1 in military service). The glock is (for me) faster, easier to acuire the target and fire from concealment than the 1911 (because of the size and weight difference). I'm more accurate at longer distances with the DW, but the likelyhood of that being an issue is almost nil. There is a lot of beauty in a tool that uses a pure simplicity of design. This is just my opinion, but it's based on my experience using both.

 

[oldman45]

Here are the stats for the two:

Glock 26:
Length: 6.29
Width: 1.18
Height: 4.17
Weight: 19.75

Dan Wesson V-Bob
Length: 8.0
Width: 1.45 (includes safety so it's deceiving)
Height: 5.5
Weight: 35.2

The Glock holds 11 rounds of 9MM, and the V-Bob holds 8 of 45ACP. I carry +P short barrel HPs in the Glock which are pretty potent. The Glock is actually a bit wider with the double stack design than the DW if you don't count the DW safely extending out a little, but they are pretty close in width. In all of the other dimensions and in weight the Glock has an advantage.

Just based on my experience with both, the Glock is more comfortable for me to carry (significantly smaller and lighter). I did carry the DW in its' Milt Sparks IWB holster this morning when I met my dad and brother for breakfast just to refresh my memory. It felt big and heavy (but I really do love that handgun, and it is fun to carry it, just not all day every day - especially in the summer).

The Glock isn't an ugly gun (IMO). It is very accurate, 100% reliable, rugged as a rock, and a heck of a lot easier to maintain than a 1911. Also, I have used them both (including a 1911 A1 in military service). The glock is (for me) faster, easier to acuire the target and fire from concealment than the 1911 (because of the size and weight difference). I'm more accurate at longer distances with the DW, but the likelyhood of that being an issue is almost nil. There is a lot of beauty in a tool that uses a pure simplicity of design. This is just my opinion, but it's based on my experience using both.

Let me put it this way.

I was not comparing a DW to Glock. I was comparing a S&W to Glock.

You cannot consider the width of a safety in measurements since holsters are built to measured frame size. So it is possible that a DW is also slimmer than a Glock.

Glocks are ugly. Their CEO says so. The man that brought them to light in the US says so. Let's face it though, they do what they were designed to do. There are other guns that will do it just as well. I bet a DW will work after being immersed in water, buried in mud or in 120 degree heat. The only issue is who is stupid enough to immerse one in water, bury it in mud or lay it out in 120 degree heat.

The trial going on in GA is going to have a major impact on Glock in the US. The UK has already been building a case that could put several with Glock in prison there. This could bankrupt Glock and the price of a used one may go up then.

I have been shooting a 1911 off and on since the mid 60s. They are not difficult to clean but takes longer to do so. They also do not explode in hands.

If you enjoy your Glock, great. Enjoy shooting it. Carry it in the best of health.

More and more are switching away from Glock but there will always be Glock fans and Glock owners, of which I am one.

 

[samuelrp]

Bigger IS Better.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Are you wanting to compare Ford Escorts to Ford Expeditions?
I am talking full size 1911 to full size Glocks and they are thinner.

Let me put it this way.
I was not comparing a DW to Glock. I was comparing a S&W to Glock.

It's difficult to know what you think you're talking about, Oldman45, all I can do is read what you post. Here's what you're posting about. See your post#48

Originally Posted by Minnehaha
I'm new to this forum, but I'll put my 2 cents in on carrying 1911s. I have a Dan Wesson VBob Combat Commander that is a beautiful handgun with the lightest, smoothest trigger you can imagine, and it is extremely accurate and completely reliable. It is however, heavy, big and hard to conceal. I much prefer to carry my Glock 26, or my S&W 649, especially in the summer months. The Glock and the Smith are also a lot easier to maintain and I don't get as concerned with surface dings. As much as I love the 1911, I guess I prefer to leave it at home.


Oldman45 Reply:
First, welcome to the Forum and jump in any time with advice, questions or comments.

Now, I am going to ask you to do something for me. Please measure you DW Combat for width. Do the same for your Glock. Your Glock will be thicker. Common sense says thinner is more concealable. Now weigh each of them. The DW will be lighter. Weight is also a factor in concealed carry. Your admission on the trigger is also noted.

So with the scales of equality favoring the DW, why carry the Glock unless you just love ugly guns or figure if it gets lost, then nothing is going to be missed?

-------------------------

Oldman45, if you don't know one Glock model from another or maybe just misread what Glock Minnehaha said he had, that's understandable. However, you were replying to and posting about a Glock 26 and a DW V-Bob as read above.

Let's make this simple. Pick a Glock, any Glock, that is heavier than the DW V-Bob which is listed as weighing 2.2lbs. Which Glock model is it?

 

[J. W.]

I can happily coexist with both. My two main carry guns are a Colt Commander and a G19. I enjoy both for their own unique attributes. Truth of the matter is that at typical defensive ranges I can run both guns equally well and put rounds on target with sub quarter second split times. Draw times are also equal, despite the much maligned thumb safety of the 1911. As distance increases and we reach 20 yards and beyond things change and the better sights, trigger and ergomonics of the 1911 begins to make a noticeable difference for me. I honestly can't say I prefer one over the other.

Capacity is an argument people throw out there to add another advantage to their hi-cap pistol. Reality is that if you can't solve the issue or get to cover in 8 or 9 rounds you're in a very bad way and probably on the loosing end of a gunfight. Sure having 15+1 on tap in my G19 is nice, but 8+1 of .45 suits me just fine as well. I've packed single stack .45's and even a six shooter (M25-13) into some hairy situations and never felt undergunned or ill equipped to defend myself.

To each his own. We've all got to work out our own salvation and when the SHTF success is far more dependent on the software, (i.e. the training, skills and mindset of the shooter) luck and the good Lord's blessings than the hardware.

 

[oldman45]

It's difficult to know what you think you're talking about, Oldman45, all I can do is read what you post. Here's what you're posting about. See your post#48

Originally Posted by Minnehaha
I'm new to this forum, but I'll put my 2 cents in on carrying 1911s. I have a Dan Wesson VBob Combat Commander that is a beautiful handgun with the lightest, smoothest trigger you can imagine, and it is extremely accurate and completely reliable. It is however, heavy, big and hard to conceal. I much prefer to carry my Glock 26, or my S&W 649, especially in the summer months. The Glock and the Smith are also a lot easier to maintain and I don't get as concerned with surface dings. As much as I love the 1911, I guess I prefer to leave it at home.


Oldman45 Reply:
First, welcome to the Forum and jump in any time with advice, questions or comments.

Now, I am going to ask you to do something for me. Please measure you DW Combat for width. Do the same for your Glock. Your Glock will be thicker. Common sense says thinner is more concealable. Now weigh each of them. The DW will be lighter. Weight is also a factor in concealed carry. Your admission on the trigger is also noted.

So with the scales of equality favoring the DW, why carry the Glock unless you just love ugly guns or figure if it gets lost, then nothing is going to be missed?

-------------------------

Oldman45, if you don't know one Glock model from another or maybe just misread what Glock Minnehaha said he had, that's understandable. However, you were replying to and posting about a Glock 26 and a DW V-Bob as read above.

Let's make this simple. Pick a Glock, any Glock, that is heavier than the DW V-Bob which is listed as weighing 2.2lbs. Which Glock model is it?

We are talking thinner. Weight is not a factor unless it is several ounces different. Also there are 1911 model guns that are made with lighter frames so the firearm it's self is lighter than a Glock, if one wants to lighten the load.

Another issue is size. Comparing guns requires all things to be equal such as barrel length.

As was pointed out, the poster said the DW was measured counting the width of the safety.

I also noticed there was no reply to my post asking your background in relation to firearms.