Goodbye Revolvers for Defensive Carry

[ikor]

Handguns poke holes. Rifles mess shid up..............................just sayin'

 

[Lost Lake]

The problem is there is no sure-stopper when it comes to handguns. I know of one incident involving a female police officer who was shot in the chest (no vest, IIRC) with a .357 Magnum 125gr JHP, but she was able to return fire, stop her attacker, and survive her injury. I think I recall another story involving a carjacker being shot multiple times with a .45 and being able to escape. I've also heard of one-shot stops from a snub-fired FBI load to the chest. My own opinion is that time will likely be a bigger factor than ammo capacity.

There are way too many variables to say one round or caliber is better than another in every situation. I will say that I make my ammo choices based on what I've researched has worked consistently well in actual shootings, which is why I load my 642 with Speer's 135gr SB-GDHP. More importantly, it's a round I know I can shoot well in my gun. I also acknowledge that emptying my gun into an attacker(s) may not work and plan accordingly. But I would do the same even if I were carrying a double-stack .45 semi-auto.

You may have misunderstood my post....

The good guy had only 5 shots, he used all five and three hit the target. That's 60% and actually probably very good for being 90 years old and under attack!

But what if he had an M&P 9mm with 18 rounds available? At 60% success ratio the bad guy would have taken 12 rounds! I would think 12 rounds in the belly would hurt more than 3 rounds. Maybe enough where the bad guy would consider leaving the scene because the lead just keeps coming his way.

I would like to ask the old man if he wished he had more than 5 rounds available.

 

[GeorgeH]

I just noticed this thread. I own both self-loading pistols and revolvers. Both have their place in the SD world. My "always" gun is a Seecamp 380 that camps out in my right rear pocket. But just a few days ago, I contacted my local dealer to buy a airweight J frame. The reason, is that I want something to both carry and leave at work for others to have access to in the event of an emergency.

 

[STCM(SW)]

I have lots of revolvers & bottom feeders to chose from for CCW.
For the summer, my Kal-Teck
.380ACP can hide anyware.
Any other time, my 1911 .45ACP or a Colt Cobra or M36 is with me.
I have CC my M21 .44Spl sometimes, but it is bulky.
My Springfield .45 XD is just to big for CCW.
Go with what you got, Old Navy saying....

 

[ContinentalOp]

You may have misunderstood my post....

The good guy had only 5 shots, he used all five and three hit the target. That's 60% and actually probably very good for being 90 years old and under attack!

But what if he had an M&P 9mm with 18 rounds available? At 60% success ratio the bad guy would have taken 12 rounds! I would think 12 rounds in the belly would hurt more than 3 rounds. Maybe enough where the bad guy would consider leaving the scene because the lead just keeps coming his way.

I would like to ask the old man if he wished he had more than 5 rounds available.

OK. What I think you're saying is that if the man had an 18-shot handgun with the same hit ratio of 60%, resulting in 12 hits instead of 3, that it would've been more effective.

Again, there's no guarantee that even those 12 hits would've worked. I know of one incident, I believe involving the Illinois State Police, where two officers armed with 9mm pistols fired on their attacker and got 13 hits. The attacker finally stopped. IIRC, it wasn't until EMS arrived that he went unconscious. I believe the attacker ultimately survived.

Even in this instance, based on what I read in the article, the attacker continued his attack after being hit 3 times. That tells me he was determined to attack his "victim". Would that determination have given him the strength to attack after being hit 12 times in the abdomen? I don't know.

Let's look at some other issues. How long would it have taken the man to fire those 18 rounds to get those 12 hits? Now how long would it have taken for the attacker to close the distance? Would the man have even been able to fire 18 rounds before then? What if those 12 hits were in the chest? What if he sprays-and-prays because of the higher capacity and ends up with an even lower hit ratio? Is the man firing in a solid 2-handed stance or in a 1-handed stance? Are one or both parties moving? What if in a panic the man didn't grip the gun correctly and caused a jam after only firing a round or two? This is before we consider the attacker's build, mental state, clothing, and whether or not drugs are in his system. As I said, there are a lot of variables and it's impossible to account for them all. Whether you have 2 rounds of the cheapest, weakest ammo in your gun or 20 rounds of the latest high-tech wonder bullet, they may work or they may not.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter what caliber or type of round you're shooting. Choosing ammo with a good track record of stopping a violent attacker, that's reliable in your gun and that you can shoot well, makes sense. What I'm saying is that whatever you carry, you should, in a sense, "expect" your ammo to fail. That way, if it does, you can respond as needed, immediately, instead of wondering, "What just happened?" as your attacker closes on you.

I would also think that even if he had that 18-round M&P and got the 12 hits you proposed, he'd still wish for more ammo.

Or a shotgun.

 

[Lost Lake]

I agree with what you say CO, but the thread is comparing revolvers and semi's for self defense, and to add to the conversation I threw in the story of the 90 year old man using a 5 shot revolver and being attacked after his gun was empty.

The gun was kept in his bathroom so size-for-carrying doesn't come into play, neither does weight.

Right now I have a M&P 9c and a .357 revolver sitting in front of me at my desk. Both have Gold Dots loaded, I think both would be a good SD gun. But if someone starts banging on my door I'll take the 9c with 13 rounds and leave the .357 with 6 rounds.

I shoot revolvers also, and I just don't get the idea of spray and pray when using a semi. What I think I may do is something similar to the cops at the bank robbery did in a video posted here last year: The cops hid behind a desk and held the gun up and fired a couple rounds. This maybe was to distract the BG, scare him or hopefully hit him. Whatever it was, I think the cops knew they had 50 rounds or so to use between their loaded gun and extra mags, and used a tactic that would be insane to try if you only have a 5 shot revolver.

I just prefer more firepower. However if a revolver or even a Derringer or a muzzleloader are more your type then carry them. With the reliability of modern semi-autos I don't see the point of handicapping myself with less chance of success.

No need to feel offended or upset, this is just my opinion, and I admit I'm getting my wife a nice 642 to see how she likes it. I will try to convince her to carry a M&P 9c though.

 

[18DAI]

To anyone interested in a current real life scenario and how it played out, Google NYPD Detective Benjamin Cintron. Here is a thumnail sketch.

On January 29th 2012 he had two mopes try to mug him as he was on his way to work. Yes, another failure in the victim selection process.

He pulled his off duty 5-shot J-frame revolver. Shot mope #1 one time - bad breath distance - with a 135 grain Speer 38+P Gold Dot short barrel round. Bullet goes through the arm, into the chest, mopey is down and out - and shortly DRT.

Mope #2 flees, imagine that. Later apprehended at his Grandmothers residence. I'll bet both were just turning their lives around and going to be doctors, you know, so they could help people. Good on you DET Cintron!

Fifty year old, off duty Detective survives an attack by two individuals, armed "only" with a 5-shot 38 revolver. I guess he doesn't frequent the internet. I wonder if he is still wearing a J-frame or has gone out and purchased a Glock? Regards 18DAI

 

[dwever]

Fifty year old, off duty Detective survives an attack by two individuals, armed "only" with a 5-shot 38 revolver. I guess he doesn't frequent the internet. I wonder if he is still wearing a J-frame or has gone out and purchased a Glock? Regards 18DAI

Glad the detective's okay. In 2010 I had to put an injured deer down, and the only thing I had was my Glock. Took three shots and it worked. Just because it worked doesn't mean a police tactical .308 rifle wasn't a more appropriate choice had it been available.

Whether bad guys or deer, anecdotal evidence is never adequate because it gives one situation where one solution worked; and it is a fallacy of logic to hold up that one situation as an answer to an exceedingly broader discussion. One example almost never answers the more important question of which solution is the one that will work best across a very broad range of potential circumstances. . Peace

 

[18DAI]

I posted the Detectives story after reading about the 90 year old man who used his 5-shot revolver ineffectively. Mainly to illustrate a point. If the old man had put an effective round through his attackers forehead or aorta - perhaps he wouldn't have had to take a beating. A Glock would likely not have made a difference there.

Sure, choose the best handgun for the job at hand.

But there are three things more important than handgun selection.

1) Mindset
2)Training
3)Tactics

Then comes what you choose to place in your holster. The Detective in my illustration was a well trained twenty six year veteran. I think he would have prevailed regardless of the handgun he had on him. For some well trained, skilled individuals, five or six rounds will be plenty. Regards 18DAI

 

[DDDWho]

Speed loader anyone?

 

[Lost Lake]

In trained hands an escrima stick would be quite deadly.
In trained hands a blow dart would be quite deadly.
In trained hands a slingshot would be quite deadly.

This really doesn't prove much when you are a 90 year old man attacked while you are away from your gun, then the only gun you get to is a 5 shot revolver.

If the old man could have grabbed a different weapon, perhaps if he had a revolver and a 18 shot Glock sitting side by side and he was equally proficient with either, which would he grab?

That is the same question I answer every day when I leave my 6 shot .357 sit in the safe and take my 13 shot M&P 9c. And the same question each of us answer when we walk out the door with our gun of choice.

I'm betting the old man wishes he had more bullets.

 

[Hook686]

The old man is lucky he did not have more bullets. As I read it, he took a beating because his gun was empty when the BG took it from him.

 

[18DAI]

Keep in mind that overzealous prosecutors love it when there are alot of holes in a............."alleged victim". If you survive the gunfight, you may still have to survive a trial.

I've seen politically motivated prosecutors easily convince twelve folks too stupid to get out of jury duty that the "defendant" went too far in firing "all those shots". More is not always better.....or even good in some cases. Regards 18DAI

 

[Lost Lake]

The old man is lucky he did not have more bullets. As I read it, he took a beating because his gun was empty when the BG took it from him.

I read that, but I believe the BG would not have got to the old man had there been more fire coming. Sure would like to know the fine details!!

Keep in mind that overzealous prosecutors love it when there are alot of holes in a............."alleged victim". If you survive the gunfight, you may still have to survive a trial.

I've seen politically motivated prosecutors easily convince twelve folks too stupid to get out of jury duty that the "defendant" went too far in firing "all those shots". More is not always better.....or even good in some cases. Regards 18DAI

As far as I know, you shoot until the threat is stopped. That may take one shot, it may take five, or in the old man's case, it took more than five but he didn't have more.....

I think the excessive shooting you refer to is shots placed after a man is down, running away or dead. This BG was still attacking.

 

[18DAI]

Well if you want to persue MAYBE's - MAYBE the bad guy wouldn't have laid a glove on the old guy if there had been a single ACCURATE shot to start with - not MORE INACCURATE FIRE.

Evidently the shots the old guy fired weren't placed properly and two of them missed altogether. I fail to see - other than suppressing fire - what more misses would have done for the old fella. Regards 18DAI

 

[6mmman]

As other have stated I carry both as need dictates. In a SHTF situation The gun you have trained with and used the most will be the one you want. I have noticed when shooting under high stress that the rounds hit the intended target without any noticed effort of sight picture or trigger control. If we cant shoot like this no amount of extra ammo is going to help. Its not magic but the results of practice and keeping what we carry simple. I used to ride with my uncle who was Sheriff in a rural VA. county. A S&W model 10 was all he needed. LEO has a different mission today. Give them all the ammo they can carry!!!

 

[Lost Lake]

Well if you want to persue MAYBE's - MAYBE the bad guy wouldn't have laid a glove on the old guy if there had been a single ACCURATE shot to start with - not MORE INACCURATE FIRE.

Evidently the shots the old guy fired weren't placed properly and two of them missed altogether. I fail to see - other than suppressing fire - what more misses would have done for the old fella. Regards 18DAI

Yes if the old man would have hit him in the head he may have stopped attacking. But he didn't. He did the best he could, for as long as he could, then he ran out of bullets.

It's comforting to think you have 5 rounds so you can easily kill 5 attackers if need be. It's just not realistic.

I don't think I could do perfect shooting while the bad guys are running, blocking, throwing things, ducking and swinging.

I'll take 13 rounds over 5 any day.

 

[hatt]

I'll take 13 rounds over 5 any day.

Me too! But I'm finding with my 14 shooter, it stays at home(usually bring my old beater Model 19 to leave in the car if I don't plan on carrying) too much leaving me with 0 rounds. I've been eyeing a Model 36 at a local store. 14>5>0.

 

[Franciscomv]

Just a couple of days ago there was a nasty home invasion in my town. The victim was a well known TV/radio personality so it got a lot of media coverage.

The home owner was shot 4 times, his son was shot 4 times as well. Both of them are in the hospital making a recovery.

One of the bad guys died, after being shot eight times with a 9mm. Another one was wounded twice (in the shoulders) but managed to get away, go get his father and show up at a hospital claiming to be the victim of a robbery.

According to the initial police report, some twenty shots were fired from several different handguns.

Most local gun-folks I've discussed this incident with think that it proves the need for high capacity handguns. IMHO, it proves the need for a good 12ga shotgun!

 

[geoff40]

You are an LEO, and IMO you should be armed with a high-cap pistol and extra magazines. Every cruiser in this country should have a shotgun and a rifle in it as well. At least I think so. Though I like revolvers better, I am glad you put yours away. Be smart out there.

For us average folks, I think a wheel gun is still a very suitable CCW choice, I think its highly unlikely that any of us are ever going to need more than a few shots. A J frame and a speed strip in my pocket, and I'm good.

Fransiscomv said:
"One of the bad guys died, after being shot eight times with a 9mm."

-This happens I know. Either the thug was blasted on meth or coke or some kind of multi chemical cocktail, or those 8 shots were ball ammo. But it ended well for him.