Legal ramifications in trigger mods?
- Thread starter HalfStack
- Start date
Halfstack I wouldn't worry about the pigtail. It's a common modification that doesn't make it a comp, or race gun.God forbid you ever had to use it, but if you did. Lawyer up with the right Lawyer. I'm not saying the cops are the bad guys, but if it's not a clean cut case. The cops and prosecutor will pick you apart.
Ya, this guy knows, probably first hand.
Cops are not the bad guys. But their job is to put you in jail. That is what they are paid to do. This is one of the reasons "you have the right to remain silent". Do not help the police prosecute you. Exercise this right to the fullest extent. If there is any way possible to get out of the situation, at all, do that first. Make sure there is no other way for yiou to come out of the situation besides usuing deadly force before you draw your gun. Once you draw a gun, everything changes, EVERYTHING.
cshoff
Member
Wow, guy. I'm not sure where you are coming up with all of this stuff. It is the job of the investigator(s) in any shooting to gather evidence and piece together the facts in order to see the big picture. If that evidence points to your innocence, there is no reason to think think that those investigators will tamper with/modify/destroy that evidence in an attempt to try to "put you in jail". It is their job to solve cases, not to wrongly imprison people who have done nothing wrong.
Just an FYI - The vast majority of self-defense shootings in this country result in criminal charges NEVER being pressed against the armed citizen who defended him/herself. Usually, the evidence speaks for itself.
There is a lot of merit to the advice that you should never do/say anything that might incriminate yourself, but it's always better if we can keep these discussions grounded in reality rather than fantasy.
It is not fantasy there chief. FACT, If you shoot someone, you will go to jail. Fact, your gun will be taken and put into evidence. Fact, you will need a lawyer. Fact, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. (They say that for a reason). Fact, if you don't lawyer up and start talking your feelings and your words will get mixed up and twisted around during an investigation. Fact, if you shoot someone and when the police arrive on scene they will have their guns drawn, pointed at the armed person, they don't care what kind of feeling you are going through, if you are deaf because you are overwelmed becuase of your feeling you may not get the chance to get arrested. Fact, police are real easy to jump the gun in recent years.
I never said anything about the police will tampering with/modify/destroy that evidence in an attempt to try to "put you in jail". I said, "it is their job". Unfortuetly that is how it is. innocent until proven guilty is not the case. Its the other way around. In your quick little post you mixed my words around. with your "will tamper with/modify/destroy that evidence in an attempt to try to put you in jail", bit. That is what happens.
There are people that have been locked up for life for invoulentary man slaughter. That means the had no intension, and did not mean for it to happen. But it did and they are in prison. There are also "not guilty people in prison. It does happen. If you think it does not, you are living in a dream world.
I never said anything about the police will tampering with/modify/destroy that evidence in an attempt to try to "put you in jail". I said, "it is their job". Unfortuetly that is how it is. innocent until proven guilty is not the case. Its the other way around. In your quick little post you mixed my words around. with your "will tamper with/modify/destroy that evidence in an attempt to try to put you in jail", bit. That is what happens.
There are people that have been locked up for life for invoulentary man slaughter. That means the had no intension, and did not mean for it to happen. But it did and they are in prison. There are also "not guilty people in prison. It does happen. If you think it does not, you are living in a dream world.
Oh I do love this subject. I looked into this a few years back after reading several threads on the subject. In the end I could not find a single documented case where an otherwise justified shooting was made unjustified by a modification or alteration to the firearm. I will keep this is as short as possible.
I began this process by discussing it with my state's attorney general. He was clear that as a matter of law the poundage of a trigger, the lack of a spring or the polishing of a gun part alone (as in customization or modification) could in no way adjust the outcome of a criminal investigation or prosecution. That justification was in and of itself a matter of intention and/or negligence. Where if you modified a trigger then killed a would-be rapist with the gun containing that modified trigger and the shooting itself was found to be within the scope of the law, you would be found innocent of any wrong doing. But if you modified a trigger, were screwing around playing quick draw, had a negligent discharge and killed your neighbor, you would be found to have criminal liability. But the issue was never about the modified trigger, it was always about the choices and actions conducted by the shooter.
I then discussed it with a couple defense attorneys and a civil lawyer. They agreed that a gun customization or modification would be a matter they would use in a civil case; to make the shooter into the boogeyman in the hopes of getting a wrongful death award ($). But they also agreed that if the shooting was fully justified and the shooter was cleared by law enforcement and/or the state's attorney, US attorney or prosecutor that it would be very difficult to win a jury verdict based on the customization or modification alone.
Finally I spoke with a couple senior criminal investigators with both state and federal agencies. They had also never heard of any shooter, who was justified in the circumstances of the shooting, suddenly made culpable because of weapon being customized or modified. Nor had they ever heard of any other circumstances where this was true; including the use of reloads. This sort of became a mission for all of us and we continued to ask our peers, review case files, talk to other agencies, talk to other prosecutors, etc. and in the end all we found was that this is a topic of great conjecture without substantive proof.
In the end, it was always about the shooter and never about the gun.
I began this process by discussing it with my state's attorney general. He was clear that as a matter of law the poundage of a trigger, the lack of a spring or the polishing of a gun part alone (as in customization or modification) could in no way adjust the outcome of a criminal investigation or prosecution. That justification was in and of itself a matter of intention and/or negligence. Where if you modified a trigger then killed a would-be rapist with the gun containing that modified trigger and the shooting itself was found to be within the scope of the law, you would be found innocent of any wrong doing. But if you modified a trigger, were screwing around playing quick draw, had a negligent discharge and killed your neighbor, you would be found to have criminal liability. But the issue was never about the modified trigger, it was always about the choices and actions conducted by the shooter.
I then discussed it with a couple defense attorneys and a civil lawyer. They agreed that a gun customization or modification would be a matter they would use in a civil case; to make the shooter into the boogeyman in the hopes of getting a wrongful death award ($). But they also agreed that if the shooting was fully justified and the shooter was cleared by law enforcement and/or the state's attorney, US attorney or prosecutor that it would be very difficult to win a jury verdict based on the customization or modification alone.
Finally I spoke with a couple senior criminal investigators with both state and federal agencies. They had also never heard of any shooter, who was justified in the circumstances of the shooting, suddenly made culpable because of weapon being customized or modified. Nor had they ever heard of any other circumstances where this was true; including the use of reloads. This sort of became a mission for all of us and we continued to ask our peers, review case files, talk to other agencies, talk to other prosecutors, etc. and in the end all we found was that this is a topic of great conjecture without substantive proof.
In the end, it was always about the shooter and never about the gun.
As a veteran LEO, I can assure you that is not a fact. I have been to a number of shootings where the shooter was escorted to the PD for an interview but never handcuffed, never placed in custody and never put in jail. But you are right about the gun always being taken into evidence and sent off to ballistics. Some of these people requested lawyers and some didn't. Those who were justified under the law were always released, lawyer or no lawyer.
66 shooter
Member
I don't think that you will have a problem with the trigger modification that you described. Rest assured that in the event that you are involved in a shooting incident that your firearm will be disassembled and examined and ballistics tested and at some point you will be asked why you modified the trigger and just be sure you tell the truth and have a sensible response.
There are a lot of people who have concealed carry permits and truly do not realize the very serious responsibility of carrying and using a firearm. That being said, one of the first things that I told my students when I taught both LEO's and civilians is to have access to a good defense attorney. That doesn't mean that you have to have one on retainer, but you better have knowledge of who to call if and when the incident occurs. Remember, there are always two stages of any deadly force incident, a criminal action and a civil action. You can be cleared of the criminal and the Civil can still come up and bite you in the butt. No matter what the circumstances of the incident or your equipment, always tell the truth and project that you were doing what any reasonable person would under the circumstances and you should be fine. Enough said.
There are a lot of people who have concealed carry permits and truly do not realize the very serious responsibility of carrying and using a firearm. That being said, one of the first things that I told my students when I taught both LEO's and civilians is to have access to a good defense attorney. That doesn't mean that you have to have one on retainer, but you better have knowledge of who to call if and when the incident occurs. Remember, there are always two stages of any deadly force incident, a criminal action and a civil action. You can be cleared of the criminal and the Civil can still come up and bite you in the butt. No matter what the circumstances of the incident or your equipment, always tell the truth and project that you were doing what any reasonable person would under the circumstances and you should be fine. Enough said.
cshoff
Member
Not so fast there, scooter. Many armed citizens who have shot a "bad guy" in self-defense never saw the inside of a jail cell (I know several, personally).
Not necessarily for a long period of time, however. We had a case here in MO a few years back where a person here on vacation from Florida shot a man in self defense in a hotel parking lot. His gun was returned to him the next day and he was allowed to return home to Florida with it at that time. Evidence obtained at the scene and eyewitness testimony pointed to his innocence and the city prosecutor saw no reason to hold him or his gun. On the other end of the spectrum, I know a fella who waited 4 years to get his gun back after a defensive shooting. It all depends on the situation, but speaking in absolutes will almost always make you wrong to some degree.
You should have a lawyer secured before it ever gets to that point, IMHO.
If you are being detained/arrested/mirandized, that is correct. It is best to keep your mouth closed until such time your attorney advises you to make a statement.
That is certainly a possibility, which is why it's a good idea to keep your mouth closed until such time your attorney advises you to make a statement.
Again, this simply isn't true in every situation. It all depends on what is happening on the scene they are responding to.
Then perhaps you would be willing to cite some examples of this happening since you say it occurs so often?
You claimed that it "is their job to put you in jail". I simply refuted that statement by saying that if the evidence points to your innocence, then they have no reason to attempt to "put you in jail". Now if, as you say, it is "their job to put you in jail", the only way they could possibly do that in the face of evidence that points to your innocence, would be for them to either tamper with/modify/or destroy said evidence. You can't have it both ways here - either they are honest and will treat the evidence they find in an honest manner, or they are dishonest and will tamper with that evidence in an attempt to make you appear guilty of a crime.
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. People have been wrongly prosecuted for all kinds of different things. It happens. Still, the vast majority of self-defense shootings in this country result in criminal charges NEVER being pressed against the armed citizen who defended him/herself.
setxn
Member
I don't anyone on this website personally, but I can recognize real knowledge,common sense,maturity and other traits of people that I would feel comfortable around if they were armed. This thread shows both ends of that spectrum.
There are case her in CA of police jumping the gun. I am sure its not to hard to find, esspecially in CA where CCW holders are not to common. There was a case about 3 months ago where a guy had a swiss army knife and he was alone and 50-75 feet from any LEO and he got shot multiple times, they all had tasers, a dog was even present and they did not use any non leathal force. Thing do happen. People do go to jail while thing are being investigated whether they are guilty or not. It does happen. You need to be prepared for the worst possible senerio all the time. Just because these thing don't happen all the time does not mean they do not happen.
There have been occasions her in CA where a hunter shot a mtm lion that was attacking his freind and killed it. The man was arrested because the lion was not showing him any sign of personal danger. Self defense of a third party did not apply. He saved his friends life and got 10 years up state for it. His freind was forever thankful but it did not do much good in our CA court system. Maybe things are different in MO or WY or KS but not here.
There have been occasions her in CA where a hunter shot a mtm lion that was attacking his freind and killed it. The man was arrested because the lion was not showing him any sign of personal danger. Self defense of a third party did not apply. He saved his friends life and got 10 years up state for it. His freind was forever thankful but it did not do much good in our CA court system. Maybe things are different in MO or WY or KS but not here.
Which really begs the question, why would any pro-gun pro-liberty American want to live in California? From your description it sounds like a pretty awful place. Maybe Halfstacks thread should have been titled "Legal ramifications in trigger mods (outside of CA)?"
Dont know where you all live but here in Texas there are justified cases of self defense were deadly forced had to be used all the time. Almost all the time charges are never brought, however you will be without your gun for a long time. As it takes a while for them to release evidence.
Yes, living in CA is not so great. Once you are here its really hard to get out, esspecially is the "unemployed state" I am in. Even with a job its not that easy to save enough to get out of here. Right now is not really a great time to pack up and move anywhere anyway unless you already have a stable job set-up to where you are going. Setting up a for sure stable job in a state where you are not is difficult on its own much less in this econ. The housing market took such a huge hit that selling your home would only leave you owing more money. Its better to stay and wait it out for a little longer so your 8 year investment is not totally lost.
I personally do not carry. I am ready if someone comes onto my property with bad intentions though. Living on a block with a few cops up and down the street is a good thing too. I am waiting for the day that i cxan pack up and get the hell out of this state and go back to where I came from so many years ago, CO.
I agree with most people on here that say that it's the intent of shooting the gun that counts, not how heavy or light the trigger is. If you intended to shoot someone the trigger weight has zero bearing on why you shot.
Now it's a different story which I think some are forgetting, what happens if you hit something you didn't intend or you accidentally discharged the weapon? Are you negligent then? criminally or civil? Alot of people say they're extremely careful with their firearms and that would never happen to them but i think that is what almost all of the people who have had an accidental discharge would have said prior to the accident.
Or to put it another way, if you put a 1 pound trigger on your firearm and it accidentally goes off and shoot me or one of my family, I expect some medical bills to be paid. And I'm not looking to sue anyone but there are plenty of people that are. So where is the line, 2 pounds? 3? 4?
Any modified trigger is going to be exploited by a lawyer working on a contingency fee even if it's modified heavier, you shot the bad guy, hit concrete behind, and now the poor guy hiding on the other side of the concrete claims a loss of hearing. Do they have a case? probably not but you can bet a lawyer will paint a picture of a crazed gun toting person who dangerously modifies their weapon just to try and make their civil case.
cshoff hit it dead on. I wouldn't recommend trying to find a lawyer while sitting in jail. How many out there know exactly who to call if you just shot someone? You don't want to choose a lawyer in the dead of night just after you shot someone.
Last, I also don't recommend clamming up and asking for a lawyer right away unless you did something wrong. The police can be your friend. It's much easier for them to write up a report as a shot intruder than trying to prove some sort of crazed gunman wrongly shoots intruder story. Call 911, ask for an ambulance for the guy. Even if it's obvious they won't make it. Be calm, do what the police say, lawyer up after they start asking questions like you're a suspect. If you were in the right, there is no need to ask like a suspect.
I can say that my aim is not to the knees to incapacitate them, it's 2 to the chest then one to the head if that didn't work. While I don't agree with purposefully adding extra shots to make sure they are dead (I'm not out for revenge and the death penalty for trying to rob me seems very excessive), part of me thinks back to the old phrase "Dead men tell no tales."
Papa always said, "Don't use a self defense weapon you don't want them to hold up in court." Some guns may look cool but they also look mean and threatening. Better to shoot someone with grandpa's old remington 870 than a pistol grip pump shotgun or a decked out AR.
Now it's a different story which I think some are forgetting, what happens if you hit something you didn't intend or you accidentally discharged the weapon? Are you negligent then? criminally or civil? Alot of people say they're extremely careful with their firearms and that would never happen to them but i think that is what almost all of the people who have had an accidental discharge would have said prior to the accident.
Or to put it another way, if you put a 1 pound trigger on your firearm and it accidentally goes off and shoot me or one of my family, I expect some medical bills to be paid. And I'm not looking to sue anyone but there are plenty of people that are. So where is the line, 2 pounds? 3? 4?
Any modified trigger is going to be exploited by a lawyer working on a contingency fee even if it's modified heavier, you shot the bad guy, hit concrete behind, and now the poor guy hiding on the other side of the concrete claims a loss of hearing. Do they have a case? probably not but you can bet a lawyer will paint a picture of a crazed gun toting person who dangerously modifies their weapon just to try and make their civil case.
cshoff hit it dead on. I wouldn't recommend trying to find a lawyer while sitting in jail. How many out there know exactly who to call if you just shot someone? You don't want to choose a lawyer in the dead of night just after you shot someone.
Last, I also don't recommend clamming up and asking for a lawyer right away unless you did something wrong. The police can be your friend. It's much easier for them to write up a report as a shot intruder than trying to prove some sort of crazed gunman wrongly shoots intruder story. Call 911, ask for an ambulance for the guy. Even if it's obvious they won't make it. Be calm, do what the police say, lawyer up after they start asking questions like you're a suspect. If you were in the right, there is no need to ask like a suspect.
I can say that my aim is not to the knees to incapacitate them, it's 2 to the chest then one to the head if that didn't work. While I don't agree with purposefully adding extra shots to make sure they are dead (I'm not out for revenge and the death penalty for trying to rob me seems very excessive), part of me thinks back to the old phrase "Dead men tell no tales."
Papa always said, "Don't use a self defense weapon you don't want them to hold up in court." Some guns may look cool but they also look mean and threatening. Better to shoot someone with grandpa's old remington 870 than a pistol grip pump shotgun or a decked out AR.
andyo5
Member
If your modification is just adjusting the spring tension, like on a 1911; I don't see how they could possibly prove that you did anything to the gun.
I keep my 1911 springs at 4 lbs, which I think conforms to most factory specs anyhow.
I keep my 1911 springs at 4 lbs, which I think conforms to most factory specs anyhow.
Thats a 1911 SA. if the hammer is cocked and the safety is not on the gun better be ready to fire.
If your a private citizen, and dont have to deal with agency regulations, then any modifications to your gun ,Unless you have
' I wanna kill something " laser etched on the slide has nothing to do with the justification needed for a self defense type shooting. As long as you intended to shoot and dont claim it was an accidental shot.
If YOU, modified a firearm and then tried to use that as a defense for an accidental or negligent shooting, I wouldnt think you would have much of a leg to stand on. Plus, no Manufacturer is gonna help out, they will more than eagerly point out that the weapon was altered from factory specs and they have no liability. Thats why if you have some bizarre trigger work done its a good idea to get it done at the factory if you can. Of course some attorney may take anyones case against you,nothing you can do about that, except be ready with a good defense. IMO.
OH and I would like to add, like someone else said, MOST Police Officers wouldnt have any idea that the insides of any gun was modified( unless something like it goes off when you pick it up) which HAS happened, or someone claims it was full auto or some reason it goes to the Firearms examiner type folks as evidence.
We all know incidents where bad guys were shot while commiting robberys and the vict (not bad guy) gets sued, thats called too many out of work attorneys and will only end when the plaintiff and/or attorney has to start paying court cost and defendant (good guy) attorney fees when they lose, it would end quick. MY .02
' I wanna kill something " laser etched on the slide has nothing to do with the justification needed for a self defense type shooting. As long as you intended to shoot and dont claim it was an accidental shot.
If YOU, modified a firearm and then tried to use that as a defense for an accidental or negligent shooting, I wouldnt think you would have much of a leg to stand on. Plus, no Manufacturer is gonna help out, they will more than eagerly point out that the weapon was altered from factory specs and they have no liability. Thats why if you have some bizarre trigger work done its a good idea to get it done at the factory if you can. Of course some attorney may take anyones case against you,nothing you can do about that, except be ready with a good defense. IMO.
OH and I would like to add, like someone else said, MOST Police Officers wouldnt have any idea that the insides of any gun was modified( unless something like it goes off when you pick it up) which HAS happened, or someone claims it was full auto or some reason it goes to the Firearms examiner type folks as evidence.
We all know incidents where bad guys were shot while commiting robberys and the vict (not bad guy) gets sued, thats called too many out of work attorneys and will only end when the plaintiff and/or attorney has to start paying court cost and defendant (good guy) attorney fees when they lose, it would end quick. MY .02
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The difference you have here is SAO instead of DAO.
What I don't get is the official reason for the pigtail spring. Is it so you can shoot +P+ or is it because of the Glock lawsuit? Was the Sigma made without the pigtail spring before?
It seems to me that the pigtail spring wasn't part of the integral trigger system but as an add on.
By the way, I got an email from S&W saying they cannot send me any parts of the trigger sear assembly which I guess includes the pigtail spring. I'll have to send the gun in for repair.
What I don't get is the official reason for the pigtail spring. Is it so you can shoot +P+ or is it because of the Glock lawsuit? Was the Sigma made without the pigtail spring before?
It seems to me that the pigtail spring wasn't part of the integral trigger system but as an add on.
By the way, I got an email from S&W saying they cannot send me any parts of the trigger sear assembly which I guess includes the pigtail spring. I'll have to send the gun in for repair.
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