Question Regarding A New S&W 640

aroundchicago

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I just bought a new 642, and while I love the gun, it does have a rather heavy trigger. I don't know what the 642 pull weight is stock, but I'd guess it's around 12lbs or more. Ideally I thought it would be great if I could smooth it out, and perhaps bring it down to around 8lbs. I know this is a great gun, requires lots of practice, but the heavy trigger pull doesn't exactly lend itself to accurate shooting. Therefore I am interested in having my gunsmith perform a trigger job, including lightening up the trigger. My question is, Wolf Springs has a reduced power spring kit and I wanted to know if I use this kit, will the gun be just as reliable? Certainly I don't want light primer strikes or other problems, but I was curious if anyone has performed the work, used the Wolf J-frame kit, and have had excellent results. Any advice would be appreciated
 
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I put the Apex j frame kit in my 640 and it did lower the trigger pull some but no too much to make it feel dangerous for pocket carry. The return feels a bit odd though even if it does work well. If I could do it over again I would have done the Wolff spring kit.
 
And legally you might have a problem in a shooting. The prosecutor (or the litigant) will claim you have a "hair trigger".

I have a 340PD and a 640 Pro. The trigger smoothed out after several hundred rounds and the weight no longer seems excessive. When new it seemed oppresively heavy. Give it time.
 
I agree, give it time. I'm a bit of a J frame nut and all of mine have smoothed out w/time.
 
I had a gunsmith at my dealer do a trigger job on my wife's 642 especially just for her. It's lighter but she still has a hard time with it due to arthritis. Have no idea if it took if from 12lb to 8lb or whatever. It is lighter. I still can't hit much with it. The laser actually squirrels me up. Definitely a 3yd gun for me. Hope if the time presents itself that my wife will be up to the task. Maybe just the sight of the laser will scare the BG off. I'm satisfied with the quality of it. Don't know anything about the Wolf spring kit.
 
Any prosecutor that claims a DAO trigger is a Hair Trigger is not going to be on he job for very long.

All this talk of being prosecuted for defending oneself is silly. Show me one case, JUST ONE where the litigants claimed the Hair Trigger was to blame for the self defense shooting.

This is good old Urban Legend. Just like using hand loaded ammo is going to get you prosecuted.

Private firearms are used in the defense of wrongdoing more than 2.5 million times each year in this Great Nation of ours. Show me all these prosecutions that folks are talking about.

Now personally, I do not like light triggers in DAO pocket guns. Super accuracy is not an issue in a personal defense firearm. If you can hit a man sized target at 7 yards you are good. The factory triggers are more than sufficient for that task.

Before you do anything. Just sit watching the news each evening and pull the trigger over and over (make sure the firearm is empty first). After a month you will be amazed at how smooth your trigger is and how light it feels. The bonus is that you will have built up the muscles that are required to fire the revolver.

Remember proper tool for the job. Do not try and turn a defensive firearm into a target gun. If you need or want more than man size groups at 7-10 yards, then buy a revolver more suited to target shooting. Perhaps a nice model 686 or 627
 
...All this talk of being prosecuted for defending oneself is silly. Show me one case, JUST ONE where the litigants claimed the Hair Trigger was to blame for the self defense shooting. ...

Mossad Ayoob recently wrote an article in one of the gun magazines and he cited a couple of cases on just that subject. Ayoob recommended shooting DAO with revolvers and bobbing the hammer if possible.

I don't think it is urban legend. I think that there are a lot of anti-gun people out there and that some of them are prosecutors with the district attorney's office.

And some lawyers don't care about guns, but do care about money and will file a lawsuit using that as a basis. I carry DAO; my only revolver that allows single action is never shot in that manner (it is a range gun).


Read: http://snubtraining.wordpress.com/tag/double-action-only/
 
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Dry fire the gun 1000 time and put about 1000 rounds through it. It will smooth out considerably. If you find it is still problematic at that time, try the Wilson or Wolff mainspring.

Everyone has a hard time shooting these little guns at first but once you get two or three thousand rounds downrange with one, you'll find they are not that hard to shoot well. Be sure to use standard pressure ammo and a good three finger grip that fits your hand.
 
As an old LE armorer I will say be cautious about taking hammer fall and trigger rebound down too low on serious use J frame guns. These little jewells get carried in pockets, purses and the like for years sometimes without so much as a decent cleaning and lube, and the mass of the parts is not all that great. You want to KNOW they will work when you need them. I rarely replace any spring...including rebound springs...on my S&Ws although I do tune the strain screws as taught in Armorer's school.
 
Mossad Ayoob recently wrote an article in one of the gun magazines and he cited a couple of cases on just that subject. Ayoob recommended shooting DAO with revolvers and bobbing the hammer if possible.

I don't think it is urban legend. I think that there are a lot of anti-gun people out there and that some of them are prosecutors with the district attorney's office.

And some lawyers don't care about guns, but do care about money and will file a lawsuit using that as a basis. I carry DAO; my only revolver that allows single action is never shot in that manner (it is a range gun).


Read: Double Action Only «
Listen I heard from your cousin's boyfriends uncle that a person he works with knows somebody that has a friend who heard that a attorney somewhere charged someone somewhere with having a hair trigger on a self defense firearm. :-)

To support your argument that this is real you are pointing to a Blog that references an article that mentions this could be used.

So Show Me A Case

Don't tell me some one else, even Mossad Ayoob, wrote about it

Show Me A Case

Acording to the FBI firearms are used more than 2.5 million times each year to prevent crimes.

Show Me Just One Case from those 2.5 million incidents
 
How in the world would the prosecuter ever know that a trigger job had been performed on a weapon? Do you think they would disassemble a firearm to determine it has been modified? Unless the defendant were to admit to having work done, I don't think they would ever take the time to perform a "forensic analysis" on the gun.

Note to self, things NOT to say to the police: "I was in fear for my life and I fired my Smith and Wesson 4013TSW, which has been modified with a trigger job such that it has a hair trigger, until the threat had been removed. That is all I am going to say until I have talked to my attorney."
 
This is not a case where the prosecutor used the "hair trigger" to convict the defendant; the defendant claimed the single action shot made it an accidental killing. Even though it sounds to be a case of justifiable self-defense, cocking the DA .38 to scare his attacker wound up costing him a few years in jail. Could this case ever be generalized to include prior work on a gun to make an "accidental discharge" more likely? Perhaps the lawyers here can comment.

Why Farago (And You) Shouldn’t Modify A Self-Defense Gun’s Trigger | The Truth About Guns

The Gun Zone -- State of New York v. Frank Magliato

The Gun Zone -- Magliato Notes
 
How in the world would the prosecuter ever know that a trigger job had been performed on a weapon? Do you think they would disassemble a firearm to determine it has been modified? Unless the defendant were to admit to having work done, I don't think they would ever take the time to perform a "forensic analysis" on the gun.

Note to self, things NOT to say to the police: "I was in fear for my life and I fired my Smith and Wesson 4013TSW, which has been modified with a trigger job such that it has a hair trigger, until the threat had been removed. That is all I am going to say until I have talked to my attorney."

The first thing a prosecutor does it turn the weapon into the firearms lab. There the firearms experts will fire the weapon to get a sample bullet. They will also have the opportunity to examine the weapon. Do you not think they are capable of determining that a weapon has been altered? I think they are.
 
Do not point to a seven year old article Show Me A Case

In the seven years since that article was put on the Internet, private citizens have used firearms to prevent crimes 17 million+ times.

Show Me One case from those seventeen million incidents.

JUST ONE

I can garantee you that several of the firearms used in those seventeen million incidents over the last seven years had work done to them. Yes, I know that to be a TRUE FACT. Not something that I read or heard about at the water cooler but something that I have personal experience with because I have a family member that is included in those seventeen million incidents.
 
Maagliato was three decades ago.

Since that incident occured 37 state of the Union have passed Shall Issue Concealed Carry, 4 states of the Union have implemented no permit Concealed Carry, 8 states of the Union have no permit Concealed Carry legislation pending.

Since that incident occured it is once again legal to defend yourself and your family in the District of Columbia, Chicago is no longer a Gun Free City and National concealed carry has passed for LEOs.

The current is flowing in our direction. The Anti 2nd Amendment News Media is trying to fool you into believing otherwise. Do not fall for it.

Be Politically Incorrect
 
The first thing a prosecutor does it turn the weapon into the firearms lab. There the firearms experts will fire the weapon to get a sample bullet. They will also have the opportunity to examine the weapon. Do you not think they are capable of determining that a weapon has been altered? I think they are.

I don't think they have the resources to devote that much time to analyze a weapon. I doubt they do much more than a ballistics match on the bullet. They already know it was the weapon used to kill someone by the shooter's admission. Are they capable of determining whether a weapon has been altered? That depends on how it was altered. If there are obvious filing marks, etc., then maybe. If springs or other parts have been replaced, then no. There are literally thousands of different types of firearms and I doubt the lab knows every single type well enough to determine if the parts are original or aftermarket without a lot of research, and again, I doubt they would spend that much time since they already have tied the gun to the shooting.
 
I don't think they have the resources to devote that much time to analyze a weapon. I doubt they do much more than a ballistics match on the bullet. They already know it was the weapon used to kill someone by the shooter's admission. Are they capable of determining whether a weapon has been altered? That depends on how it was altered. If there are obvious filing marks, etc., then maybe. If springs or other parts have been replaced, then no. There are literally thousands of different types of firearms and I doubt the lab knows every single type well enough to determine if the parts are original or aftermarket without a lot of research, and again, I doubt they would spend that much time since they already have tied the gun to the shooting.

1. The technician has to pull the trigger to get the gun to fire into the medium and capture the bullet. He does this often in big cities and in the FBI. I would imagine that he would notice a reduced trigger weight.

2. Perhaps they don't spend much time on most shootings, but I would imagine that time is not much of an issue when the shooting results in a death.

3. I'm no expert, but I've fired revolvers with action jobs and reduced trigger weight and I noticed the difference right away. I think you'd have to be a complete novice not to notice the difference.
 
Maagliato was three decades ago.

Maagliato was three decades ago.
Hi. New member here. I was just browsing and saw this exchange and thought I would add my 2 cents.

Not only was Magliato 3 decades ago, but Ayoob got it all wrong too. I became acquainted with this case back in 2003 while discussing this same topic on rec.guns. A poster said that Ayoob wrote of a man, who was justified in using deadly force, being convicted of murder because his cocked revolver fired accidentally. I bought a copy of Combat Handguns just to verify that Ayoob did write that, and found he did. He wrote that the judge would not allow any element of self-defense argument, ruling that the defense's theory was the shooting was accidental and, by definition, there was no such thing as a justifiable accident.

Ayoob went on to write "Ironically, Magliato had accidentally shot the deceased with a gun cocked to single action at a moment when he would have been perfectly and provably justified in deliberately shooting him with a double-action pull of the trigger".

That seemed so illogical that I had to check it out, to the point of paying Westlaw for a copy of the appeals court decision. This is what I found.

As for justification, Magliato had been threatened earlier, during a fender-bender with the deceased. He then went home, got his gun and went looking for him. Then after the shooting, ran off.

Regarding his claim that the judge did not allow self defense argument, this is from the decision:

"At the charging conference, defense counsel stated that he 'definitely' did not want the court to charge on the defense of justification under Penal Law § 35.15. Nevertheless, defendant sought to argue that he was justified in drawing the weapon, but not in firing it. The court informed defense counsel that if he made such an argument, the justification defense would be charged.

Defendant argued, in his summation, that the shooting was a tragic accident, but he made no specific argument that the weapon was drawn in self-defense. Accordingly, the People, in their summation, did not argue duty to retreat, and the court did not give a charge on the statutory defense of justification".

It was also Magliato's defense that made the argument of "no such thing as a justified accident", not the court.

"On this appeal defendant argues that, because he claimed the discharge of his pistol was accidental, and did not claim that he fired it in self-defense, the justification defense is inapplicable. He maintains that justification does not apply to an unintentional crime, and that drawing his pistol did not constitute a "use of deadly physical force" within the meaning of Penal Law § 35.15. These arguments are without merit.

(2) Defendant's contention that the law of justification has no bearing on his conduct, solely because the discharge of his pistol was accidental, requires little comment. It is settled that the defense of justification applies fully to a defendant's risk-creating conduct, even though it had unintended consequences (see, People v McManus, 67 NY2d 541; *29 People v Huntley, 59 NY2d 868)".

So, according to the NY Court of Appeals, there IS such a thing as a "justified accident".
 
There aren't any cases about this. I have been looking, and challenging others to find the same. Getting a trigger job will not get you in any trouble of any kind, except that you will like it, and buy more guns.
If I get the Master Revolver package from the factory, and use that gun in defense, nobody will care, and certainly not use it against me.
The guys pressing the trigger to get the bullets into the medium for analysis aren't going to know. They are going to say, "nice gun" and note to themselves how smooth it is compared to a Glock or Lorcin, which they see ALL THE TIME.
There are no cases. None. Do what you like with your gun and sleep at night knowing that YOU can operate is to defend yourself and your family.
 

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