+P 38 Special Nonsense Regarding Model 10

[Armyphotog]

The old saying may apply here, "I don't believe anything I hear, and only half of what I read." I was issued a heavy barrel Model 10 in 1968. We were only allowed to used .38 Special in our revolvers, but some of us "cowboys" carried Super-Vel. I only used mine for business. Others, trained and routinely fired the Super Vel. The guys who I had a personal experience with, all had to have their guns worked on after a while. So like my Model 19's with which I use .357's sparingly, I do the same with hot loads for my Model 10's.

 

[Texas Star]

The old saying may apply here, "I don't believe anything I hear, and only half of what I read." I was issued a heavy barrel Model 10 in 1968. We were only allowed to used .38 Special in our revolvers, but some of us "cowboys" carried Super-Vel. I only used mine for business. Others, trained and routinely fired the Super Vel. The guys who I had a personal experience with, all had to have their guns worked on after a while. So like my Model 19's with which I use .357's sparingly, I do the same with hot loads for my Model 10's.

I boldfaced and italicized some of your text. I hope that Dr. Pig and other doubting Thomases see that.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Jack Flash]

I'm a little confused so could someone please clarify -----

Is the claim being made that .38 Special Super-Vel of the late 1960s and early 1970s is equivalent to .38 Special +P available today from the major manufacturers?

 

[Fox Creek]

Many thanks Roaddog28. Yes, I missed the link. Much food for thought here. I will have to study up.

 

[Dave T]

I'm a little confused so could someone please clarify -----

Is the claim being made that .38 Special Super-Vel of the late 1960s and early 1970s is equivalent to .38 Special +P available today from the major manufacturers?

Jack, that seems to be the implication of an earlier post. If that's what they think they are badly mistaken. Super-Vel's stuff was pretty hot. Certainly hotter than what is passed off for +P today.

And if you guys want the real forerunner of +P do a little research on the old 38/44 loads. How "plus pee" does a 158g bullet at 1150 fps out of a 38 Special case sound? (smile)

Dave

 

[stiab]

Did you read the link I enclosed. The standard pressure 38 special back before 1972 was running at 850 to 900 fps.

I read it, and your 1972 statement is simply not true. That writter's comments have changed many times over the years. As some of his unverified statements were challenged on this and other forums, he went back and deleted those posts without explanation, and deleted those sections of his story, not using it for future posts. There is an interesting thread in the ammo section of this forum a year or two ago where myself and other LEO's from the 1960's and 70's confirm that the quoted factory velocity numbers back then were pure hype, and not obtainable with standard sidearms. The test barrel for a .357 Magnum in those days was about 11" long and unvented. In 1979 when the new requirements were implemented industry wide for velocity testing, S&W's ammo reported velocities dropped over 20%. Same ammo, just accurate numbers. While it is true that factory velocities were advertised as higher back in 1972, it is not true that they were that fast when shot out of regular revolvers.

 

[Art Doc]

Ahh... now I understand the situation with the USAF revolvers.

1. Very well used.

2. "Range Guns" meaning they were probably filthy. Really dirty guns wear faster as tolerances fill up with crud accelerating wear and I suspect that carbon build up in the forcing cone can lead to cracking.

3. Non-standard ammo likely loaded much hotter than factory +P. So a comparison is moot. No relation.

As for the watering down of the 357 ammo, I know that at one time it was claimed that a 158 bullet moved out at 1470 FPS or some such number. No, this was not reality. I had one box of 158 SP 357s from the early 1970s that I clocked at around 1350 from a 5" M27. Now factory 158s tend more to the 1250-1300 range. I think the factory 357s were backed off 50-100 FPS in the interest of all the alloy and small frame 357s that came out the last 15 years or so. But this is just intuition.

The specification sheets and my own shooting convinces me beyond a doubt that 38 Special ammo has been back-pedaled and the 38 Colt Super has really been taken down a few notches.

At the end of the day regardless of what used to be loaded current mainstream +P is a 125 at 925 and this is, in my humble opinion, a mild target load. I would never trust my life to factory +P.

 

[roaddog28]

Road dog, a quick question; I'm a newby both to the forum and to Smith & Wesson. Just Picked up a Model 36, 2" chiefs special, mfg 1969. Do you forsee any problems with +P's in a J frame, it is 95%, safe queen never fired.
Thanks for input..............Ken

I have a model 36 no dash and I been shooting +P ammo through the revolver on occasion. Remember the S&W manual says, any model S&W 38 special made 1958 or later is ok shoot +P ammo. My only concern would be a airweight. But I don't own any airweight revolvers. I own only steel revolvers.
Hope this helps,
roaddog28

 

[roaddog28]

I read it, and your 1972 statement is simply not true. That writter's comments have changed many times over the years. As some of his unverified statements were challenged on this and other forums, he went back and deleted those posts without explanation, and deleted those sections of his story, not using it for future posts. There is an interesting thread in the ammo section of this forum a year or two ago where myself and other LEO's from the 1960's and 70's confirm that the quoted factory velocity numbers back then were pure hype, and not obtainable with standard sidearms. The test barrel for a .357 Magnum in those days was about 11" long and unvented. In 1979 when the new requirements were implemented industry wide for velocity testing, S&W's ammo reported velocities dropped over 20%. Same ammo, just accurate numbers. While it is true that factory velocities were advertised as higher back in 1972, it is not true that they were that fast when shot out of regular revolvers.

What you did and others I will not dispute. But way back in the early 1900s the hand ejector 38 special out of a 6 inch barrel was shooting a 158 gr at over 850 fps. Now this was blackpowder but still it leads me to believe the ammo back before the 1970s was running faster and loaded at higher pressures. What I am saying along with Saxon Pig is the standard pressure 38 special ammo today is loaded at a lower pressure and velocity.
The OP was commenting about a question on another forum about shooting +P out of a 1971 model 10. The member on the other forum was getting poor advice according to him from S&W.
Personally I shoot when I can afford it +P 38 special ammo through all of my K frames. This includes a M&P pre 10 4 inch made in 1954 and a model 36 no dash. I believe there is needless concern about shooting +P ammo. All S&W 38 special all steel revolvers made in the last fifty years can handle the +P round.
Regards,
Howard

 

[gunblade]

Ahh... now I understand the situation with the USAF revolvers.

1. Very well used.

2. "Range Guns" meaning they were probably filthy. Really dirty guns wear faster as tolerances fill up with crud accelerating wear and I suspect that carbon build up in the forcing cone can lead to cracking.

I was a weapons instructor in the USAF for 20 years...1983-2003. Some of our M15s were well used, but they were not "filthy" range guns...our training guns were cleaned after every firing. Weapons qualification training in the USAF includes field stripping & cleaning, and they were ALWAYS cleaned by the students after firing and inspected by the instructor before going back into the armory, at least that was the case at every CATM shop I ever worked at. I also never saw any M15s worn out by shooting PGU ball ammo and I never saw a cracked forcing cone on any M15 I ever handled in the USAF. Doesn't mean it never happened, I just don't believe there was a widespread problem with the ammo causing accelerated wear in the guns. JMHO.

 

[amd6547]

I believe problems were exaggerated to build the case for replacing them with 9mm's.

 

[stiab]

I believe there is needless concern about shooting +P ammo.

I agree, but some people when making this case incorrectly quote advertised factory velocities from yesteryear as being accurate, and they were not. For example, the 1965 Gunner's Bible shows a factory Remington Arms Company ballistics chart, which states that the standard 158 grain .38 Special round at the muzzle would be doing 855 fps, not the 900+ some people attribute to it. I tested this identical period ammo, and it clocked at average of 805 fps. The same vintage Winchester brand averaged 793 fps. The case for +P being OK does not have to be made with misrepresentation of the actual velocities of standard loads from the 60's and 70's. Best to all...

 

[stiab]

The specification sheets and my own shooting convinces me beyond a doubt that 38 Special ammo has been back-pedaled and the 38 Colt Super has really been taken down a few notches.

I believe that is just an 'urban legend' that keeps getting repeated on the internet. The link below is to a earlier post on this forum where you can see the results that brought me to that conclusion. It shows (as you have seen before) the old numbers for the 38 Super were also overstated, and there is no significance difference in factory 130 grain fmj Super ammo of today and that going back as far as the 1940's...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/65553-ammo-test-old-vs-new-38-super.html

 

[Stu Honea]

One thing for certain when it comes to .38 Spec.+p,regardless of which way the actual truth flows on this topic,is the fact that bullet designs and overall performance has been enhanced with today's modern HP's.
This is especially true for loads taylored for short barrels and designed to perform at their respective operating velocities. It's really not a huge concern.Load up with the good stuff that has a proven record in properly conducted repeat testing and street use,learn to hit with it,and you'll be fine. It's only a handgun.

 

[Art Doc]

Stiab- I am not relying on numbers. I shot the guns over a chrono. Old ammo ran 1275-1300 and new ammo goes 1100. Fact, not urban myth.

This is why they stopped using nickel cases for Supers. No need to tell it apart from 38 ACP as they are now the same load.

 

[KJM]

And this thread should be a STICKY, huh?

Oh boy.

 

[stiab]

Stiab- I am not relying on numbers. I shot the guns over a chrono. Old ammo ran 1275-1300 and new ammo goes 1100. Fact, not urban myth.

Show us the pictures of the gun and ammo, like I did in the 38 Super link posted above. Give us actual numbers, not rounded estimates, back up your claims.

 

[stiab]

One thing for certain when it comes to .38 Spec.+p,regardless of which way the actual truth flows on this topic,is the fact that bullet designs and overall performance has been enhanced with today's modern HP's.

That's very true Stu. The golden age of .38 Special ammo is today, not yesteryear.

 

[Joe in SC]

There wasn't this much discussion about the lowly 38 special even back when it was discovered it wouldn't penetrate a 32 ford door panel.

How about another subject for the S&WF think-tank debates?

I propose the following: Is the 41 magnum really dead?

or

Can a 357 magnum actually penetrate the water jacket of a Chevy big block?

 

[Art Doc]

Don't have the gun any longer. Sold it about 4-5 years ago. It was a Colt Commander made in 1967. I now have two full size Government Model Supers but this test was run with the Commander. I doubt the 1/2" difference in barrel length makes significant difference.

Current (as of 2006) Factory PMC 125 JHPs averaged 1120 FPS.

Current (as of 2006) Factory Winchester 130 FMJs averaged 1130 FPS.

Factory Winchester 130 FMJ purchased around 1985* ran 1270 FPS average.

Like I said, 38 Super USED to be loaded in nickel cases to visually differentiate it from the identical but lower pressure 38 ACP. I noticed sometime after 2000 that they no longer used nickel cases for the Super. My test showed why. The Super is now loaded to about the same pressure level (and velocity) as the 38 ACP. All on advice of counsel, I presume. No more worries about someone loading Supers into an old 38 ACP gun.

BTW- Looking at my log book, my top load for the 38 Super is a 115 JHP at 1475 FPS. Barks.

If this is insufficient documentation then you will have to continue calling me a liar. It's all I have.

*I bought the gun in 1985 and I picked up several boxes of Winchester factory ammo at the same time. In 2006 I had one box left over and that's what I used in the test.