possible m1917 british proof marks

[Remyshooter]

New to the forum. Hello.
Was given a old smith and wesson. Has a bunch of markings on it and I have searched the internet, possibly to my folly. As as I can tell the serial number puts it a 1917 production. However it has two, the one on the barrel is 8xxx, as is the one on butt. On the frame and cylinder arm is 2xxx. Well before the barrel number is the capital letter B, this letter is also behind the shell ejector.
On the top of the barrel is a small cross followed by the SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A PAT'D MAR. 27. 94, (a few more dates, ends with) FEB. 6. 06 then another cross.
Side of barrel 45 AC (no P, no room, see pic) SMITH & WESSON, Followed by three British proof marks, crowns over BV, BP,NP.
Where the barrel meets the frame, crown over BV, crossed swords, under those some words or a long word.
On the side of the cylinder over each chamber are the same brit proof marks, one over each chamber. The only other markings on cylinder are behind the ejector, an E and a 3, and small capital B.
The frame has several other marks. A crown over a T9 with a E under that. However, the stamp didn't take completely, so it was stamped again. Under these II. Not too far from these crossed sword with letters on either side they intersect.
Other side of the frame the s&m trade mark.
Grip frame. E over 3, B over F on other side. Bottom, just serial number, but hole for lanyard loop.
Grips are cheap plastic stag horn look a likes.
I research tells me it is possible civilian model or a gun a solider took home and cleaned of us property marks off, civilian model more likely. British lend Lease kicks in around 1940 and is donated. The Brits test and mark it. Sees some service and makes it's way back to the us with a American soldier for there are no import marks that I could see.

 

[Oyeboteb]

As far as I can say -

Your Revolver is not a Model 1917, which was the US Military Model.

It is a 2nd Model Hand Ejector of the .455 series, which were primarly made for the Commonwealth to use in WWI. These usually have either lots of British Proof Marks, or a few minimal acceptance Marks when having been used by Canada or Australia.

The 1917 had a shorter ( 5-1/2 Inch ) Barrel, and, would say Model 1917 on the Butt and also have a US Army Inventory Number on the Butt which with the S&W 1917 was also the same as the Revolver's Serial Number.

The .455 portion of the 2nd Model Hand Ejector production was originally chambered in the .455 Eley Cartridge, which was a shorter Case than the .45 Colt...and, many of these Revolvers were later converted to use .45 ACP with Moon Clips, or .45 AR or even .45 Colt to try and marketed in the US.

 

[Remyshooter]

Barrel is 5 -1/2 inch, unless measurement of barrel is all the way to where it meets the chamber.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Barrels are measured from the front end of the Cylinder, to the end of the Muzzle.

If you look at images of the M1917, you will see they have a shorter Barrel than do the original configuration .455 series of 2nd Model Hand Ejectors.

Can you post an image showing the Butt?

If you wanted to relay the Serial Number, various members here could tell you fairly closely when it was shipped. These tend to have been made and shipped from 1914 to 1918.

 

[Remyshooter]

Pics of the butt, hope they are what you are looking for

 

[Remyshooter]

Has a bunch of markings on it and I have searched the internet, possibly to my folly

Was told it look like M1917 and jumped from there. Not familiar with newer s&w. I like the older cowboy guns.

 

[Remyshooter]

Another question. Who would of done the conversion and possibly when? ww1 or ww2? No serial numbers on the cylinder, so probably machined in the conversion process to 45 acp. No, NOT ENGLISH MAKE or so such mark on the gun, my understanding is that those stamps were done on guns exported from England so maybe it didn't get back to America through normal sales channels.

 

[s&wchad]

No, NOT ENGLISH MAKE or so such mark on the gun, my understanding is that those stamps were done on guns exported from England so maybe it didn't get back to America through normal sales channels.

Look at photo three in your first post, below the Birmingham proof house viewed proof. It looks like "NOTENGLISHMAKE" to me.

 

[beagleye]

The numbers under the "swing arm" aren't serial numbers. They are some kind of assembly numbers for matching parts. I am not sure but I think there might be another spot to check, which is under the ejector star on the back of the cylinders. I use a magnifying glass for that one.

It's a heck of a cool looking gun. It's been thru alot, imagine if it could tell the tale. Some of these ol war horses are really accurate. Do you reload? If so you might find that soft lead bullet will be more accurate than standard 45 acp. I wouldn't shoot +p in that one. Hornady makes a swaged bullet that really shot well from one I had that was similar.

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: .454 45 CAL :: 45 Cal .454 255gr FP COWBOY™

 

[Remyshooter]

under the ejector star on the back of the cylinders

There is a E and on other side behind star 3. And then a small Capital B. Could the E and 3 be the guy who converted it?

I reload, but mostly 45 colt.
And I have shot it. Shoots great, hits point of aim. Put Winchester sliver tips through it. Funny thing was, the cylinder arm was stiff even after I lubed it, but after it shot the first cylinder, the cylinder arm loosened up. Swings out so smooth now.

 

[Texas Star]

There is a E and on other side behind star 3. And then a small Capital B. Could the E and 3 be the guy who converted it?

I reload, but mostly 45 colt.
And I have shot it. Shoots great, hits point of aim. Put Winchester sliver tips through it. Funny thing was, the cylinder arm was stiff even after I lubed it, but after it shot the first cylinder, the cylinder arm loosened up. Swings out so smooth now.

You definitely have the Second Model .455 Hand Ejector, with the usual 6.5-inch barrel. Evidently, some dealer converted it to the other caliber. This was not done by the UK govt., but by private dealers and gunsmiths after the guns left Crown property.

These guns were not heat treated (the M-1917 was, by US Govt. demand) and the chambers are thin at the bolt cut. Don't hot rod it! They were proofed for .455 pressures. .45ACP is probably proof pressure for .455. but .45 Colt is milder, and a better conversion for these guns.

The first Model .455 was a Triple Lock, BTW. By far the greater number of .455's were the Second Model.

The cylinder arm (yoke) probably just had some dried grease or dirt that was shaken loose by firing. I'd pull the cylinder/yoke assembly and clean and oil it and its recess in the frame. DO NOT mix up any screws. They each go ONLY in the same holes they came from!

 

[beagleye]

I'd pull the cylinder/yoke assembly and clean and oil it and its recess in the frame. DO NOT mix up any screws. They each go ONLY in the same holes they came from!

Watch out if you pull the cylinder/yoke that the little spring and detent pin don't get lost. They are probably stuck down in the bottom of the yoke, but once cleaned they will pop out.

 

[Remyshooter]

The first Model .455 was a Triple Lock, BTW. By far the greater number of .455's were the Second Model.

Newbie here. What does triple lock mean? And does 8xxx serial number denote a first model? When s&w first started making the .455 for the Brits I read they were using up old inventory parts from other guns. Is this one of those? And when was it 2nd model made for the Brits?

 

[Muley Gil]

Your revolver has two locking points, one at the front of the cylinder and one at the rear. The Triple Lock revolver had a third lock at thge yoke (the part that the cylinder revolves upon).

The Brits received some .455 revolvers that were triple locks. They felt that these would be more prone to jamming in trench warfare.

Yours is a second model, as S&W eliminated the third lock for the Brits. The second models were built from 1915 to 1917. And no, your revolver was built new for WW I.

Go to this thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/238659-triple-lock-but-one.html for pictures of a Triple Lock.

The revolver shown also has a "NOTENGLISHMAKE" marking on the frame.

 

[Remyshooter]

Thanks all for the info, this is great to know.

 

[Remyshooter]

Now, wondering, what do you all think this could be worth? I know conversion and condition will knock it down a bit.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Pics of the butt, hope they are what you are looking for

Yes...

Butt is what one would expect of the .455 Series of Revolvers of THE 2nd Model Hand Ejector Model.

The Model 1917 would have it's "U S ARMY Model 1917" and the Serial Number on the Butt, as seen in this hastily found image of one which has of course been Nickeled and fitted with Stag Stocks.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6259637/167021671.jpg

So, the Model 1917 would have those Stampings on the Butt, while the 2nd Model Hand Ejectors so called, would not, and their Butt would only have their Serial Number there and nothing else.

Even though technically the Model 1917 was also a 2nd Model Hand Ejector as far as all of it's mechanical details and form, but differed in having been made to use the Half Moon Clips to hold the semi-rimless .45 ACP Cartridge.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Another question. Who would of done the conversion and possibly when? ww1 or ww2? No serial numbers on the cylinder, so probably machined in the conversion process to 45 acp. No, NOT ENGLISH MAKE or so such mark on the gun, my understanding is that those stamps were done on guns exported from England so maybe it didn't get back to America through normal sales channels.

As far as I gather, most of these were sold off by the English Government as surplus following WWI, sold to English Wholesalers, and, many were modified by the wholesalers or their sub-contractors to chamber .45 ACP/Auto-Rim, some being modified for .45 Colt, some being modified to chamber either .45 Colt or .45 ACP/Auto-Rim, some being modified into being .22s even...and, these modifications tended to have been done some ways before WWII, in order to sell the Revolvers on the American Market ( being as there was no Market in England oweing to their Anti-Gun Politicians having passed Laws making private ownership of Revolvers, difficult).

After WWII, it was zillions of the S&W Victory Models which had mostly been given to England by the US Gov't for WWII under the enormous grift of so called 'Lend Lease', and which were chamberd for the .38-200 Cartridge, which then got ( typically, badly ) modified to chamber .38 Special, and or also crudely hacked down and made into 'Snubbies' and hastily Nickel Plated and uglyiest possible front sights installed and so on, to then get dumped onto the American Market for super cheap prices during the 1950s and 1960s.

 

[2152hq]

There's a faint capital 'P' still on the the back face of the cylinder at the 12 o'clock position in the first pic. *** a 'U' stamped on the back face at the 1 o'clock position,,also very faint now.
But I don't see any remnant of a ser#.

I gather this revolver is in 45 Long Colt caliber now,,maybe I'm reading this all wrong though!
It only takes about .008" of matr'l to be removed to make the 45LC work in a .455. Some or all can be removed from the recoil shield on the frame making shaving the rear face of the cylinder nearly un-necessary.

The '45 A.C.' marking was a common retailers stamping for '45 Auto Cartridge' conversions.

The English proof marks appear done for the pistol in it's original caliber since no additional proof house designated cartridge marks are present.
The '45 A.C.' marking w/o any additional pressure or case length specs next to it looks to be a retailers marking, not a proof house marking. JMHO.

If it was converted to 45acp, the 'P' on the rear of the cylinder would have been elliminated in the cut..and I can't think of why it could have been stamped after the conversion by any Proof House.

Perhaps the cylinder is an addition to the gun since that conversion to 45acp.

 

[Remyshooter]

The '45 A.C.' marking was a common retailers stamping for '45 Auto Cartridge' conversions.

The English proof marks appear done for the pistol in it's original caliber since no additional proof house designated cartridge marks are present.
The '45 A.C.' marking w/o any additional pressure or case length specs next to it looks to be a retailers marking, not a proof house marking. JMHO.

If it was converted to 45acp, the 'P' on the rear of the cylinder would have been elliminated in the cut..and I can't think of why it could have been stamped after the conversion by any Proof House.

Perhaps the cylinder is an addition to the gun since that conversion to 45acp.

Don't know about it being a different cylinder, see pic. If new cylinder then it was reproofed.

45 colt doesn't fit, 45 acp does and shoots great.