OSHA

[ric_in_or]

Someone asked how the anti-gun crowd would attack next. I said: Taxes.

What I was not expecting was for them to use OSHA.

At the Trib:
OSHA: Gun range exposed workers to lead - Chicago Tribune

David Kopel --
The Volokh Conspiracy » OSHA targets shooting range

In a nutshell:
- Range workers were exposed to loud noises
- Range workers were exposed to lead
- Range workers were not wearing gloves
- Range workers used Hoppes solvents (could be a container labeling violation - which would be legit IMO)
etc.

Given the huge budgets most ranges have, the fine could easily put them out of business.

Have to wonder how Smith and Wesson will handle the Indoor Nationals - next year.

 

[McBear]

When I looked at starting an indoor range a bunch of years ago the costs associated with proper ventilation was one of the reasons I did not go through with it. I think it was a bad decision on my part because the initial costs would have been covered over time but...

Indoor ranges put lots of particulates in the air, lead is just one. Lack of proper ventilation is a really good way to get OSHA's attention and with good reason and it has ZERO to do with guns. If you go back to before there was much thought on what we were breathing or absorbing into our bodies things like lead poisoning were much more common as was dain bramage. The old joke of Gomer and Goober at the gas station was not so much about them being from the hills as much as spending time around lead gasoline.

I sometimes think we go way overboard on regulations. Then I take one of my trips to China to inspect manufacturing facilities for products that "regulations ran out of the US". I take a minimum of eight bottles of Visine and when I leave my mucus and expectorate [snot] is black for about a week.

 

[tjtoolbox]

OSHA - looking to get more money to Justify there agency.

I work in a marina and OSHA is all over us with regulations on protecting us against ourselves.It is like insurance, your paying to cover yourself but if you never use it , you are betting against yourself that something will happen that's a lot wasted a lot of money. It is all a big Government scam, keep all the Lawyers Rich and rates go up for everyone.
OSHA only wants their piece of the pie, with no government help with their budget they are going after anything that they can.
The next thing that they will want is come into your home to make sure that it is OSHA approved.
WAY TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT

Someone asked how the anti-gun crowd would attack next. I said: Taxes.

What I was not expecting was for them to use OSHA.

At the Trib:
OSHA: Gun range exposed workers to lead - Chicago Tribune

David Kopel --
The Volokh Conspiracy » OSHA targets shooting range

In a nutshell:
- Range workers were exposed to loud noises
- Range workers were exposed to lead
- Range workers were not wearing gloves
- Range workers used Hoppes solvents (could be a container labeling violation - which would be legit IMO)
etc.

Given the huge budgets most ranges have, the fine could easily put them out of business.

Have to wonder how Smith and Wesson will handle the Indoor Nationals - next year.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

In a nutshell:
- Range workers were exposed to loud noises
- Range workers were exposed to lead
- Range workers were not wearing gloves
- Range workers used Hoppes solvents (could be a container labeling violation - which would be legit IMO)
etc.

I like how they tackle the issue of loud noise by banning loud guns.

Here's an idea for the geniuses at OSHA... How about repealing the NFA regarding silencers?

 

[wheelgun28]

This came up before but vanished, anyhow this is really a non issue.

Like it or not we have workplace regulation. All workplace must follow the same rules (with rare exception) These laws are not new, in fact they are about forty years old.

I deal with OSHA regs a lot. If OSHA comes to one of the plants I do work for I often accompany the inspectors in the plant.

Lets break this down to some reality.

Noise, when you have a high noise workplace you need to provide hearing protection, annual hearing tests checking for hearing loss over time. If you have a sound level of over 100db you need to install "engineered devises" (sound absorbing material) I work on a regular basis in sub 100db shops (high speed metal stamping) Controlling noise isnt easy but it can be done. OSHA will never tell you what or how do do something, it leaves them liable.

So I really doubt that OSAH told them to use a smaller caliber. They probably said reduce noise or install engineered devises.

Exposure to lead, lead or any substance for that matter requires proper personal protection equipment to handle it. Lead also requires testing for exposure via a blood test.

Hoppes in the wrong bottle, it doesnt need to be the original container but it needs to be marked. This is law 29cfr1910.1200 knows as HAZCOM. It has nothing to do with being gun cleaner.

The range sounds as if they feel that they are above the law, dont care about the employees. I wonder what else the range didnt feel like doing.

My guess the OSHA people didnt care it was a gun range.

Most every OSHA inspection is driven by some type of report. A employee can call and tell them about the problems or a trip to the hospital with an accident will bring them in also.

In this case my guess is someone had high lead levels or worse they brought home the lead and their children high exposure.

To me this whole story is a BS one made to get people mad at the government. Would a better story be "deaf guys children get lead poising"

Another way to look at this is why should the range down the street follow all the rules and take care of its employees while these guys get away with not doing anything?

As for fines, they are negotiable based on just how bad the situation was and how well you correct the situation.

I am NOT Mr government lover. I have read and understand these laws, most are common sense and any one that gave a hoot about the employees would do anyhow. Like most things they arent perfect, some go a bit to far, some dont go far enough...

Added

OSHA inspectors are pretty decent people. They arent looking to nail you. If they find something no quite right, have an explanation as to why it is that way. Also treat them as guests in you building. Dont be a jerk...

They really like to be told "get lost", "what law", "you cant make me" and my favorite, "we have been doing this X years and no one ever got hurt"

 

[McBear]

I like how they tackle the issue of loud noise by banning loud guns.

Here's an idea for the geniuses at OSHA... How about repealing the NFA regarding silencers?

Read the articles...no guns were banned. It was a fan for failure to require employees to have hearing protection and ventilation. NO BANNED GUNS.

 

[bluegrassarms]

McBear, I looked at indoor range construction as well, and no kidding on the ventilation requirements and costs. I don't know if it would pay back or not b/c the operating costs are also very high relatively speaking. IIRC you have to turn the air with the outside every 10 minutes. When it's 30 or 100 degrees outside that's a lot of heating and cooling.

I haven't run one, have no idea what the actual numbers are, but when I thumbnailed the ventilation costs then you toss in labor and the other stuff it's not a great payback. There are just better investment options. Maybe none as fun, but better ROI.

Lead is pretty serious,and taken pretty seriously. IMO if any range is out there doing it wrong I want it stopped b/c it will give ranges in general a bad image and that's the last thing we want. I will say that it happening in or around the People's Republic of Chicago does make me suspicious, but indoor range management is serious business, or at least should be.

 

[McBear]

McBear, I looked at indoor range construction as well, and no kidding on the ventilation requirements and costs. I don't know if it would pay back or not b/c the operating costs are also very high relatively speaking. IIRC you have to turn the air with the outside every 10 minutes. When it's 30 or 100 degrees outside that's a lot of heating and cooling.

I haven't run one, have no idea what the actual numbers are, but when I thumbnailed the ventilation costs then you toss in labor and the other stuff it's not a great payback. There are just better investment options. Maybe none as fun, but better ROI.

Lead is pretty serious,and taken pretty seriously. IMO if any range is out there doing it wrong I want it stopped b/c it will give ranges in general a bad image and that's the last thing we want. I will say that it happening in or around the People's Republic of Chicago does make me suspicious, but indoor range management is serious business, or at least should be.

Directly to your question of OSHA and Chicago...I wandered down to the CDC website and found that, of the four highlighted examples, they were Chicago, South Carolina, Kentucky and Florida. I have shot at the Louisville range and its ventilation was very poor. Bud's is like a hospital surgery by comparison [and last time I was there I felt I needed a Kevlar helmet from all the thrown brass ]
CDC - Indoor Firing Ranges - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Read the articles...no guns were banned. It was a fan for failure to require employees to have hearing protection and ventilation. NO BANNED GUNS.

Actually, I was referring to the article where it was reported that OSHA's suggested way of tackling the issue was to eliminate larger calibers handguns and [I]prohibition[/I] of shotguns and rifles at the range for training. That guns were not ultimately banned wasn't the thrust of the article nor my comments, but rather the type thinking of these do-gooders, as reported.

 

[MrAmbassador]

I don't know, I am all for safety when it makes sense but I think the government can often go off the deep end with over kill. In my life all paint was lead based, flashing for roofing was lead, most fuel had lead in it, our toys were made of lead water pipes were soldered with lead and on and on. Somehow we survived. I agree it's not good but it's not nuclear waste either. Oh did I mention the ranges where nobody wore ear or eye protection. We drove to them in cars without seat belts. Ah, the good old days.

 

[McBear]

Actually, I was referring to the article where it was reported that OSHA's suggested way of tackling the issue was to eliminate larger calibers handguns and [I]prohibition[/I] of shotguns and rifles at the range for training. That guns were not ultimately banned wasn't the thrust of the article nor my comments, but rather the type thinking of these do-gooders, as reported.

Actually, if you go to the link provided by the "conspiracy" page you will see the actual OSHA report. As you wander down to page six you will see a section that reads, in response to the issue of RSOs who spent 8+ hours at continuous noise levels of 382.9% that which is allowable...
"General methods of control applicable in these circumstances include, but are not limited to:

And there is a list of four items, from sound deadening to removing things that make the loudest bangs.
The "thinking" of these "do-gooders" is solving the problem of hearing loss of employees at a range that breaks simple published rules on a consistent basis.

http://www.osha.gov/ooc/citations/IllinoisGunWorksLtd_110282_0608_12.pdf

 

[McBear]

I don't know, I am all for safety when it makes sense but I think the government can often go off the deep end with over kill. In my life all paint was lead based, flashing for roofing was lead, most fuel had lead in it, our toys were made of lead water pipes were soldered with lead and on and on. Somehow we survived. I agree it's not good but it's not nuclear waste either. Oh did I mention the ranges where nobody wore ear or eye protection. We drove to them in cars without seat belts. Ah, the good old days.

Wanna see the curve rate of cancer in relation to lead and other heavy metals in the early to mid 20th Century?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Actually, if you go to the link provided by the "conspiracy" page you will see the actual OSHA report. As you wander down to page six you will see a section that reads, in response to the issue of RSOs who spent 8+ hours at continuous noise levels of 382.9% that which is allowable...
"General methods of control applicable in these circumstances include, but are not limited to:

And there is a list of four items, from sound deadening to removing things that make the loudest bangs.
The "thinking" of these "do-gooders" is solving the problem of hearing loss of employees at a range that breaks simple published rules on a consistent basis.

http://www.osha.gov/ooc/citations/IllinoisGunWorksLtd_110282_0608_12.pdf

LOL I had just posted the pdf link for Wheelgun28 who thought the entire article was BS. I'll go ahead and delete my reply to him since he can see from your link where the article was correct.

I particularly liked page 22 where OSHA issued a citation because an instructor picked up a round off the floor without proper hand protection. And of course page 23 where a citation was issued for touching a broom handle. These are all rated under the category of "Serious Violations". If OSHA thinks it's that bad, I see no reason why wearing full hazmat suits isn't mandatory.

'Hey Joe... I hope they're only shooting .22s'



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[MrAmbassador]

Wanna see the curve rate of cancer in relation to lead and other heavy metals in the early to mid 20th Century?

I would but keep in mind other sources other than lead as a cause. Smoking is one that comes to mind. Another is in the early 1950s, open-air explosions of nuclear bombs at the Nevada test site. Radioactive fallout was landing virtually all over the country.

 

[McBear]

LOL I had just posted the pdf link for Wheelgun28 who thought the entire article was BS. I'll go ahead and delete my reply to him since he can see from your link where the article was correct.

I particularly liked page 22 where OSHA issued a citation because an instructor picked up a round off the floor without proper hand protection. And of course page 23 where a citation was issued for a near-death experience of a guy touching a broom handle without proper hand protection.

The article was misleading. It stated that they recommended lowering caliber. What the report stated was that lowering caliber was one of the many options that a range COULD as they looked at sound abatement. Those are two different things entirely. The conspiracy blog suggests it was an active recommendation rather than one of the many standard recommendations for abatement.

And yes, I know, it can seem like an anal difference...I have to deal with accurate verbiage in reports on a daily basis and intent is important.

 

[McBear]

I would but keep in mind other sources other than lead as a cause. Smoking is one that comes to mind. Another is in the early 1950s, open-air explosions of nuclear bombs at the Nevada test site. Radioactive fallout was landing virtually all over the country.

Cancer has many sources. But I was more referring to the research where, in autopsy they find abnormal levels of lead in the body.

Two other examples. Ham radio operators in the 1950s-70s had an inordinately high rate of Lymphatic and Hematopoietic Malignancies that could be directly correlated to use of Linear Amplifiers, and more importantly, those who used a QST article in the 1960s that showed how to build a station seat with your amplifier tucked under the seat pad. Sorta slow cooking the boys, as it were.

When I did BRAC Master Plans for the Air Force in the early 1990s we ran across a base which had previously been a bomber manufacturing facility in WW2. When the planes rolled off the line they went to a berm and sighted in their 50cal guns. Over four years they "sighted in" a bunch of lead into that berm which was introduced into the water-table over time. The cancer cluster from well water and later city water for that area is staggering and one reason that base will never close is that the cost of environmental cleanup will be too high.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The article was misleading. It stated that they recommended lowering caliber. What the report stated was that lowering caliber was one of the many options that a range COULD as they looked at sound abatement. Those are two different things entirely. The conspiracy blog suggests it was an active recommendation rather than one of the many standard recommendations for abatement.

And yes, I know, it can seem like an anal difference...I have to deal with accurate verbiage in reports on a daily basis and intent is important.

Yeah, I can see how if someone wants to be mislead they can be.

I'm sure the citation for the guy who dared to pick up a round off the floor was misleading... he probably wasn't wearing an OSHA approved back brace for lifting heavy loads....

 

[McBear]

Yeah, I can see how if someone wants to be mislead they can be.

I'm sure the citation for the guy who dared to pick up a round off the floor was misleading... he probably wasn't wearing an OSHA approved back brace for lifting heavy loads....

My guess, and this is just based on years and years of dealing with **** like this on both sides...OSHA came in [and I would bet this is not the first time] and the owner gave the inspector the "government oppressors" or "you're just trying to shut down gunshops" or maybe even an "Obama..." opinion. Now, if they were both having a bad day the inspector had a couple of choices but one of those choices was to field strip the range. Think about boot camp when you might have said just a bit too much and suddenly you had the complete and undivided attention of everyone that mattered. Or think about declaring your rights and your opinions about "the man" if you get pulled over for going 8 over.

Now, that which would have been simple...a writeup for ventilation and a writeup for noise is now a write up for everything but the color of the owner's shirt.

It's like the lesson everyone that eats out should learn. Never p*** off the server that can spit in your food between the kitchen and your table.

 

[wheelgun28]

I will chime back in here, thanks for the link to the OSHA site.

I dont think I was to far off, ok I will give you they did leave a suggestion of lowering calibers. My guess is that they have a standard for gun noise by caliber, a 9mm is X db and a 44mag is Y db etc. They offered a suggestion, one of several.

I didnt read the entire thing, I am short on time.

Why picking up the round is a problem is the range (according to the report) is contaminated and is almost every surface that gets touched. Things like the broom, key boards, mouse, the list went on. You pick up a contaminated object then go to the office computer or sweep up. It just transfer the contamination. Since the range didnt bother to test employees for lead levels we dont know how bad it really is.

I am sorry but I dont have pity on the range, the icing on the cake is cleaning the range by blowing with compressed air. It does not get much stupid than that.

I do think that one item that would get off the list is the exposed to flying spent shell case, that are sharp and dangerous (paraphrasing here). That is a stretch.

The place seems to have little to no PPE...

What else, no/ improper eye protection, I am surprised that everyone does not know that standard eye wear isnt safety glass. Then even if it is it needs proper side shields. You can buy prescription safety glasses and add side shields to meet the regulation. The side shields come on and off so you can wear your glasses normally. It does add a few dollars to the cost of glasses

Inadequacy of ear protection my guess is the place has smooth walls and ceiling and its loud. I do find it hard to believe that instructors are exposed for as many hours as the report claims

I hate to say it but these are the most basic laws, glasses, hearing, HazCom, the lead exposure is more difficult to understand and follow.

Another question is how many people work in the range total, 3, 5, 10 or 50?

At some point addressing all these things becomes a full time job for someone. Just maintaining MSDS, hearing tests and records, lost time records, and the lead stuff, its work and needs to be done right.


How these things normally go is someone shows up and says "Hi were with OSHA and would like to see your loss time records" In this case its probably lead testing records. If you say"sure come into my office and I will get them" They smile and think your trying to do the right thing, if you make a dumb face and say what are you talking about. The tone changes...

Id bet they could have written MORE if they wanted to, pen must have run out of ink

Id say to the gun range, welcome to 1990...

My guess is still something triggered the inspection. OSHA does not really have the man power to do these places a random. The construction industry keeps them busy most of the time.

The range needs a lawyer that specializes in this and a company that sets up and helps establish these programs. The fines should go down, way down. Unless they acted like nit wits.

If this place was a factory that made lead widgets, all the same laws could have been broken. The widget factory would have not been a story at all.

I dont really deal with this end of OSHA stuff, PPE yes, HazCom sure, lead and exposure no. I deal with this you can look it up if you care to

29 cfr1910.212
29 cfr1910.217

Ive got an early am busy week, its shutdown time...

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

My guess, and this is just based on years and years of dealing with **** like this on both sides...OSHA came in [and I would bet this is not the first time] and the owner gave the inspector the "government oppressors" or "you're just trying to shut down gunshops" or maybe even an "Obama..." opinion. Now, if they were both having a bad day the inspector had a couple of choices but one of those choices was to field strip the range. Think about boot camp when you might have said just a bit too much and suddenly you had the complete and undivided attention of everyone that mattered. Or think about declaring your rights and your opinions about "the man" if you get pulled over for going 8 over.

Now, that which would have been simple...a writeup for ventilation and a writeup for noise is now a write up for everything but the color of the owner's shirt.

It's like the lesson everyone that eats out should learn. Never p*** off the server that can spit in your food between the kitchen and your table.

The list of citations speak for themselves.

If the list of citations appears to you to be so overzealous that it should be assumed the owner must have done something personal to the government to demand such abuse... well... all I can say is that when I read about the antics of agencies like the ATF, OSHA and the EPA, extending them the benefit of the doubt isn't always my first inclination.