Interestingly, I asked for a digital search on 3 of mine a few months back. Came back no hits.
UPDATE with letter--Rairity and Value - PreWar 2" M&P
- Thread starter Big Fred
- Start date
Interestingly, I asked for a digital search on 3 of mine a few months back. Came back no hits.
OK where does this gun fit in.
Lee Jarrett do you remember this one?
Serial 833889 and lettered as one of the first 100 2 inch round butt shipped after WW2.
Was it manufactured before the war and set in vault or made up of left over parts after the war?
Lee Jarrett do you remember this one?
Serial 833889 and lettered as one of the first 100 2 inch round butt shipped after WW2.
Was it manufactured before the war and set in vault or made up of left over parts after the war?
Lemme guess..."S" underneath the left grip or on the barrel flat or both? Pre war hammer block? Rebound slide stud polished flat?
Here is photo of other side. As I remember there was small S on the barrel flat.
This serial number falls within the range of the 38/200s for the British. My opinion is the frame was built and s/n stamped before the war (or they would have left room for the "S") but finished after the war (stud polished flat). Whether the gun was completely assembled before or after - who knows.
BTW... I have s/n 833957 so it wasn't such a wild guess.
BTW... I have s/n 833957 so it wasn't such a wild guess.
I thought all .38/200s were square butt guns.
I am inclined to interpret this as a postwar S-prefix frame, but I am completely ignorant about when the factory started producing round-butt M&P frames after the war.
Does it have the post-1945 safety hammer block? You don't have to take the sideplate off to check. Look down in front of the hammer and see if a small flat piece of steel is being pulled down as the hammer moves back.
I don't think a single Pre-Victory was retrofitted with the improved hammer block safety.
I am inclined to interpret this as a postwar S-prefix frame, but I am completely ignorant about when the factory started producing round-butt M&P frames after the war.
Does it have the post-1945 safety hammer block? You don't have to take the sideplate off to check. Look down in front of the hammer and see if a small flat piece of steel is being pulled down as the hammer moves back.
I don't think a single Pre-Victory was retrofitted with the improved hammer block safety.
Pretty sure all the 38/200s were square butt but there is a batch of these 2 inch RB guns in the same serial number range that letter as "S" guns but there is no "S" in the number on the butt. There is no room for an "S" there and the "S" was added to the frame underneath the the left grip or on the barrel flat or both. Now if the frames were produced and numbered after the war, you'd think they would have left room for the "S". Additionally, this batch of guns have the pre war saftey but were shipped in 1946, well after the Navy incident. The one pictured below is an example. Serial number 833957 is a 38/200 shipped in October 1941 to Allied Forces. Obviously, this is not a 38/200. The one introduced above by Toyman is also part of this group.
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I want to thank everyone that contributed to this thread. I am always amazed at the amount of knowlege that is openly shared on this forum. A big THANK YOU to all.
I sent for a letter and although it may be a few months till I get a reply due to the backlog, I will post the info when I receive it.
I sent for a letter and although it may be a few months till I get a reply due to the backlog, I will post the info when I receive it.
Mike, thanks for the additional info on the 833xxx specimens. I knew nothing about this interesting block of revolvers and am now in the picture.
Excellent thread. It ought to be recorded in the noteworthy thread index.
Actually, that nomination will be my next order of business on the forum...
Excellent thread. It ought to be recorded in the noteworthy thread index.
Actually, that nomination will be my next order of business on the forum...
I do not have the revolver anymore, traded it to Lee Jarrett. I bought it as a shooter and tried to letter it and came back as 5 inch sqaure butt. I communicated with Roy Jinks and further reserch showed a group of about 100 2 inch round butt 38 specials in the number range as PACE40 stated. The one I showed above shipped August 22, 1946.
DGNY
Member
Good find; and interesting thread. Appreciate additional information.
Mine is 62517x, RB, ~85+%, bright blue, wrong #[and dished-medallion] walnuts.
Regards,
Dyson
Mine is 62517x, RB, ~85+%, bright blue, wrong #[and dished-medallion] walnuts.
Regards,
Dyson
Its cataloged in the 1937, 1940 and 1941 catalogs. Shows as available in 2,4,5 or 6 inch barrel lengths. I don't have the ones in between these years but its probably there too. Question is ...when does it first appear?
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I just checked the 80th anniversary catalog and on page 13, it states that the M&P was available with a 4, 5 or 6 inch barrel blue or nickel with round butt and black rubber stocks. The M&P square butt, Model K was also advertised with a 4,5 or 6 inch barrel blue or nickel and checked circassian walnut stocks with S&W monograms. The 38 M&P Target is offered with a 6 inch barrel only with the walnut stocks and grooved straps and trigger and only offered in blue.
The 1934 price list stapled to the back inside cover shows the M&P round butt available for $32.00 in 2,4,5,6" with rubber stocks. The square butt only shows 4,5 and 6" barrels.
PS: I don't have a 2" pre war in the colleciton but I do have a post war 2" square butt (C 847XX) that was shipped in August of 1949. (also a 5" example (C 463XX) shipped in January 1949) and (a 6" example (C 20XX) shipped in November 1948.
The 1934 price list stapled to the back inside cover shows the M&P round butt available for $32.00 in 2,4,5,6" with rubber stocks. The square butt only shows 4,5 and 6" barrels.
PS: I don't have a 2" pre war in the colleciton but I do have a post war 2" square butt (C 847XX) that was shipped in August of 1949. (also a 5" example (C 463XX) shipped in January 1949) and (a 6" example (C 20XX) shipped in November 1948.
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That makes sense. The catalog is from 1932, before the 1933 production order. The 1934 price list after. Anybody have a 1933 catalog or price list? FWIW - the earliest known shipping on a 2 inch is Jan 1934.
While I cannot tell you the value of a pre war M&P 2 inch I can tell you with absolute certainty that a number of these guns survive in the vaults of S&W until at least June 1942. I will explain. As everyone already knows the M&P was the workhorse of law enforcement and security until the mid 1980s. For reasons only known to S&W management at the time they decided to make these guns during the Great Depression. Had these guns been made at another time they would have quickly sold out.
Most people think that once a police officer was promoted to detective they would go out and buy a snub nose revolver. Well that is television not reality. Until the 1980s most police departments required officers to pay for all their equipment including the gun. Growing up I remember many stories for old beat cops my father had over for dinner. Many of these pre war cops would tell how the neighborhood church would have a bake sale or special collection to help the pending graduate pay for his gear. A newly promoted detective would usually only purchase a cancelable holster. If the square butt was a problem they would do a "modified round". The back strap was cut down to the round butt while the front strap was left original. Those that had the means to afford a gun during the Depression would probably have spent the money on a fancier gun instead of the workhorse.
Another reason these guns did not sell out was that guns stores of the time were very different than those of today. Most gun stores sold rifles and shotguns and carried little in the way of hand guns. Remember this was at a time you could order a gun delivered directly to your home.
Now with this background it is easy to see that some of they guns sat around. December 8, 1941 saw the first of many more to come rationing rules. Fully assembled firearms lacking military inspector markings could not be shipped off to the military. These guns and later special production runs we held for special homeland procurement needs. Deference plants, transportation hubs, law enforcement agencies and other war needs required firearms. The process of getting a firearm was relatively simple considering the war. The business or agency filled out a detailed request form and paid a fee. The gun was then shipped to the business or agency.
Several years ago I purchased a pre war (1937) 2 inch M&P from the widow of a 4F police officer hired July 42. His gun for the duration of the war was the 2 inch M&P. I got the gun with original grips, box, paperwork and the 4 inch holster he modified. Before anyone asks about me publishing copies of the war forms I will not. I do not want someone to make fake copies and rip off people. How do I know this is all real? My wife's family has known this family for about 100 years. This is not my only civilian issue war gun but it has the most complete history.
Most people think that once a police officer was promoted to detective they would go out and buy a snub nose revolver. Well that is television not reality. Until the 1980s most police departments required officers to pay for all their equipment including the gun. Growing up I remember many stories for old beat cops my father had over for dinner. Many of these pre war cops would tell how the neighborhood church would have a bake sale or special collection to help the pending graduate pay for his gear. A newly promoted detective would usually only purchase a cancelable holster. If the square butt was a problem they would do a "modified round". The back strap was cut down to the round butt while the front strap was left original. Those that had the means to afford a gun during the Depression would probably have spent the money on a fancier gun instead of the workhorse.
Another reason these guns did not sell out was that guns stores of the time were very different than those of today. Most gun stores sold rifles and shotguns and carried little in the way of hand guns. Remember this was at a time you could order a gun delivered directly to your home.
Now with this background it is easy to see that some of they guns sat around. December 8, 1941 saw the first of many more to come rationing rules. Fully assembled firearms lacking military inspector markings could not be shipped off to the military. These guns and later special production runs we held for special homeland procurement needs. Deference plants, transportation hubs, law enforcement agencies and other war needs required firearms. The process of getting a firearm was relatively simple considering the war. The business or agency filled out a detailed request form and paid a fee. The gun was then shipped to the business or agency.
Several years ago I purchased a pre war (1937) 2 inch M&P from the widow of a 4F police officer hired July 42. His gun for the duration of the war was the 2 inch M&P. I got the gun with original grips, box, paperwork and the 4 inch holster he modified. Before anyone asks about me publishing copies of the war forms I will not. I do not want someone to make fake copies and rip off people. How do I know this is all real? My wife's family has known this family for about 100 years. This is not my only civilian issue war gun but it has the most complete history.
Memphis
Member
Just thought I would update this thread with what I call a "major" find. About an hour ago I put $100 down (in a pawn shop of all places) on what appears to be a pre war 2 inch NICKEL 1905 4th chg. It is a little better than shooter quality, round butt and has the black hard rubber grips and sports a serial of "6119**". They had it priced at $349 and wouldn't budge. I gave them a twenty, a ten, two fives, one roll of susan b anthony dollars and a check for $40. My balance is 282.32. If I can scrape up the rest I'm going back today.
I only found it cause I was in there to check out a post war pre-20 ($400). More on all of this (with pics) later when I get them paid for and in hand.
Suffice to say, this has been an AWESOME saturday!
Roger
I only found it cause I was in there to check out a post war pre-20 ($400). More on all of this (with pics) later when I get them paid for and in hand.
Suffice to say, this has been an AWESOME saturday!
Roger
Malysh
Member
Congratulations!
A great firearms day, indeed.
A great firearms day, indeed.
Roger, good for you!
Anxiously awaiting photos...
Anxiously awaiting photos...
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