I ordered a M&P9 and now I read about all the accuracy issues. Wonderful!

[Big Fred]

I've been reading a lot about this accuracy issue and I have one of the 9 mm FS pistols that shoots terrible. Just yesterday I took it, an older 6904, and my PF9. I usually shoot my revolvers at 25 yds., but set up at 15 for the pistols. The M&P shot 4 to 5 inch groups. I was shooting Federal Champion, WWB, S&B, Federal 9bp, and Federal 9bple. The 6904 would stay inside 2 inches, heck even the inexpensive PF9 cut the M&P's group size in HALF !!!!!

Grant, I have sent you an e-mail about your barrels and I want on the list to get one fitted. If I didn't like everything else about the M&P I would dump it and not waste any more time on it.

 

[Desert Dog]

Totally agree. Where the problem arises though is that the M&P is competing in a market where their competitors DO shoot 4 inches OR better. So since the M&P isn't significantly cheaper than any of the other "quality" defensive pistols, it should shoot as well as they do IMHO.

The factory likely understands this better than either one of us, yet they remain unwilling to acknowledge the problem publicly. My perception remains, that Smith simply doesn't believe the market is discerning enough to know they are being sold a comparativley inferior product. For the most part, they are right.

Based on my FS45 experiences, I would have thought it possible to buy a FS9 that delivers the same sort of accuracy. There really should be no good reason that an average shooter needs to seek out a hand fitted replacement barrel for a new gun. Sadly, this remains the only reasonable solution for those that own a FS9 that groups poorly, short of just washing their hands of an otherwise excellent platform.

 

[C4IGrant]

The factory likely understands this better than either one of us, yet they remain unwilling to acknowledge the problem publicly. My perception remains, that Smith simply doesn't believe the market is discerning enough to know they are being sold a comparativley inferior product. For the most part, they are right.

Based on my FS45 experiences, I would have thought it possible to buy a FS9 that delivers the same sort of accuracy. There really should be no good reason that an average shooter needs to seek out a hand fitted replacement barrel for a new gun. Sadly, this remains the only reasonable solution for those that own a FS9 that groups poorly, short of just washing their hands of an otherwise excellent platform.

I don't disagree with you, but here is another (possible) reason for the accuracy issues. The M&P 45 was built for a .Mil contract (SOCOM) that never actually happened. The Military required that the pistols shoot a certain group size. Because of this, S&W had to meet that in order for their pistols to pass the trials.

With the M&P 9/40, there has never been an accuracy standard set (by anyone). On top of this, S&W has NEVER lost an LE contract do to accuracy issues. Why? Because most all LE trials are about RELIABILITY and most LE quals are only to about 15yds (so an accuracy issue would never show up if it was even tested).

I do know that S&W is going to make changes to their barrels in the future (further proof that there is a problem), but when that will be I cannot answer.



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[Desert Dog]

I don't disagree with you, but here is another (possible) reason for the accuracy issues. The M&P 45 was built for a .Mil contract (SOCOM) that never actually happened. The Military required that the pistols shoot a certain group size. Because of this, S&W had to meet that in order for their pistols to pass the trials.

I do believe there is some merrit to this explanation, and in fact, discussed this very point earlier in the thread. I also wondered aloud, whether some of this also is a function of the inherent accuracy of the 45 and/or the commonly more limited range of bullet weights used in these guns.

With the M&P 9/40, there has never been an accuracy standard set (by anyone). On top of this, S&W has NEVER lost an LE contract do to accuracy issues. Why? Because most all LE trials are about RELIABILITY and most LE quals are only to about 15yds (so an accuracy issue would never show up if it was even tested).

All good points, but none of this fully explains the anomaly that is the FS9. Hard to reconcile that explanation against the fact that every size 40/357 and all of the other 9s group considerably better. Why is this so?

Could it be that the engineering geoemetry speced for the locking of shorter barrels was used across the entire line, with insufficient consideration given to the slide velocity differences and how that would impact the dwell time? Could it be that the OEM vendor for the FS9 barrel is either different from the one used for the compacts, or if the same, just delivering out of spec barrels that aren't being rejected, in order to keep the production line pushing FS9 product out to the distributors?

I do know that S&W is going to make changes to their barrels in the future (further proof that there is a problem), but when that will be I cannot answer.

One can only hope for sooner, rather than later. I'm sure this will be a quiet 'engineering revision', for which there will be no public announcement. If only to satisfy academic curiousity, I would really like to know exactly what has made the FS9 the problem child of the M&P line.

 

[C4IGrant]

All good points, but none of this fully explains the anomaly that is the FS9. Hard to reconcile that explanation against the fact that every size 40/357 and all of the other 9s group considerably better. Why is this so?

Commonly, shorter barrels shoot better than longer ones (at least from my experience).

One can only hope for sooner, rather than later. I'm sure this will be a quiet 'engineering revision', for which there will be no public announcement. If only to satisfy academic curiousity, I would really like to know exactly what has made the FS9 the problem child of the M&P line.

From measuring close to 50 FS and 5L 9mm barrel hoods and slides, I can tell you that the amount of "play" between the two can be a lot. This, coupled with a less than ideal twist rate is what causes the majority of the accuracy issues.


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[turbo38gn]

Not that it matters, just bought another M&P, 1hr ago... got crazed last night, decided I wanted another MP9fs to test out. So I went onto my local Northeast BB and found one that happened to be available for trade... no money out of pocket, straight up swap.. I'm going to the range this weekend, if I can and going to shoot 25yds... I did this last time I got into this discussion on M4c... cept I have a 40fs with a S\L 9mm conversion barrel... I traded one of my Model 65-3 3" SS revolvers for this... oh well, I got another one of them...

 

[M29since14]

I traded one of my Model 65-3 3" SS revolvers for this...

Say it isn't so!

Just kidding. Let us know how this one shoots. It's another piece of the puzzle, but I think we all know what the final puzzle looks like. In the meantime, if you are satisfied with the accuracy of your small-caliber M&P pistols, you'll get no complaints from me.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Below are groups I posted before. These are at 15 yards off hand and are groups made by the new barrel S&W put in my FS 9mm M&P after it's second trip back to the factory. I know it's not supposed to be a target gun, but if that's the case....then all of my other pistols must be set-up for Olympic style competition since they get far better groups, including the Shield.

These groups are about half the size of what the original barrel produced using the same ammo at the same 15 yard distance. Even benched they were worse than this.

 

[turbo38gn]

That's my Point 29, I'm not trying to push my stuff on anyone, but really am tired of other's trying to push their stuff on me, I can appreciate the crusade Grant, but still don't buy most of your approach to it directed at us "fanboys" as you like to call us when we don't agree with all that you say. Now that's taking a shot at me and many here, that's why you don't see so many posting in these threads.

 

[Desert Dog]

From measuring close to 50 FS and 5L 9mm barrel hoods and slides, I can tell you that the amount of "play" between the two can be a lot. This, coupled with a less than ideal twist rate is what causes the majority of the accuracy issues.

Not sure I'm following this logic. Do the FS/5L 9s exhibit an extra degree of slop that is measurably greater than is the case with the compact 9s and the entire line of 40/357 pistols?

I've also begun to wonder if the rate of twist is as major a problem as has been suggested. Aren't the rates of twist the same for both the compact and FS 9s? IIRC, the M&P has something like a 1 in 18.75" twist rate. Storm Lake offers 9mm replacement is a 1 in 16". BarSto is likewise 1 in 16" on their barrels. All things being equal, wouldn't a longer barrel afford the slower twist rate a greater opportunity to better stabalize the bullet than a shorter one would?

Confounding this twist rate explanation for me, is the commonly used European faster twist rate of one turn per metre (9.84") used for their 9s. Seems like the replacement barrel twist rates (alone) aren't so radically different, as is the case with the European one, that it could majorly account for the accuracy issue.

 

[kozmic]

....hummm, my 9c shoots where I point it (every time) and is easily more accurate than I am regardless of what I feed it. It shoots extremely well handheld for a pocket gun. I feel it has made me a better shooter and I trust it with my life.
Not many guns out there I feel that way about.

 

[turbo38gn]

That's not good enough, we need to see targets and you must hit a 2" group at 25yds or your wife is gonna die when you have to shoot the badguy at 10ft holding her hostage..

....hummm, my 9c shoots where I point it (every time) and is easily more accurate than I am regardless of what I feed it. It shoots extremely well handheld for a pocket gun. I feel it has made me a better shooter and I trust it with my life.
Not many guns out there I feel that way about.

 

[Desert Dog]

That's not good enough, we need to see targets and you must hit a 2" group at 25yds or your wife is gonna die when you have to shoot the badguy at 10ft holding her hostage..

Please don't devolve the quality of disucssion here by taking pot shots at fellow members and rolling your eyes at those trying continue with what has been an otherwise friendly discussion. You're (of course) free to disagree with my point or anyone elses, but I think it better serves the group interest, if you can make your own point and provide us with a supporting argument.

I'm not trying to push my stuff on anyone, but really am tired of other's trying to push their stuff on me, I can appreciate the crusade Grant, but still don't buy most of your approach to it directed at us "fanboys" as you like to call us when we don't agree with all that you say. Now that's taking a shot at me and many here, that's why you don't see so many posting in these threads.

No one is trying to push anything here. Hard to understand why you take exception to the term "fanboy", as you have chosen to include that term in your own signuture line.

This discussion has shown us that some people are having an issue with FS9 accuracy, while others feel that their FS9 is plenty accurate. Given the subjective nature of describing what accurate is, I thought it was reasonable for Grant to ask someone to better define what they believe is 'acceptable accuracy'. Posting targets is a means of visually demostrating what you consider accurate (or inaccurate) to be. Longer shooting distances simply amplify and make groups more easily measured, which can be useful for comparing shooting results.

 

[turbo38gn]

DD,, I took no shots at anyone here, sorry if you take offense, to me taking offense. I didn't call anyone here fanboy, but I and others were called fanboys in a derogatory manner, hence the change in my signature. Why didn't you jump up to the plate then? If you have a problem with me not agreeing with someones point of view, get over it, that's life. I'm the one that's been attacked for my point of view, and I responded in like fashion. This is not M4C, I see post after post of happy M&P owners, what's the problem with that. If you would like your gun to be more accurate, I have no problem with that. I have other guns I use for target shooting and like many here are happy with my results. I hope you find joy in yours

 

[Desert Dog]

DD,, I took no shots at anyone here, sorry if you take offense, to me taking offense. I didn't call anyone here fanboy, but I and others were called fanboys in a derogatory manner, hence the change in my signature. Why didn't you jump up to the plate then? If you have a problem with me not agreeing with someones point of view, get over it, that's life. I'm the one that's been attacked for my point of view, and I responded in like fashion. This is not M4C, I see post after post of happy M&P owners, what's the problem with that. If you would like your gun to be more accurate, I have no problem with that. I have other guns I use for target shooting and like many here are happy with my results. I hope you find joy in yours

My apology, as it seems that I missed the later addition to your signature line.

What I took offense to was your deragatory reference about the hostage scenario example I used earlier to make my point about the necessity of greater shooting precision, followed by the rolling eyes, along with the reference to Grant (I presumed) and the need to see targets showing shooting a 2" group at 25 yards. Unless I misread something, I read this as a shot at myself and Grant. Was that not the intention?

I'm not sure how I could have been clearer, but I continue support the right of others to hold opinions different than my own.

 

[kris7047th]

My M&P9c at 25 YARDS .. Handgun class YSINTG 9/22/10

This was after 6.5 hours of class time at the end of the day, about 400 rnds down range learning the fundamentals.

 

[kris7047th]

Yes, my Shield runs perfect and is much more accurate than my FS M&P. The deniability is about the fact that some people are constantly trying to blame the users of the guns with accuracy issues rather than something with the guns themselves. It's almost above the deniability of Glock owners when the Gen 4s were first having issues.

Instructors in my area are still seeing issues with the Gen 4s.

 

[turbo38gn]

Ok, I remember seeing that scene in a Dirty Harry movie, Harry nailed him with his 44mag, I just got 2 of those for just such a situation, and I think the bad guy fell into the water...

My point, you used a movie scene to belittle me, I returned the favor since I thought you couldn't possibly be serious. Like I'm going to shoot the bad guy in the head while he holds a gun to my wifes head.. I may get my sniper rifle and take that shot, but I doubt it.

chill out.

My apology, as it seems that I missed the later addition to your signature line.

What I took offense to was your deragatory reference about the hostage scenario example I used earlier to make my point about the necessity of greater shooting precision, followed by the rolling eyes, along with the reference to Grant (I presumed) and the need to see targets showing shooting a 2" group at 25 yards. Unless I misread something, I read this as a shot at myself and Grant. Was that not the intention?

I'm not sure how I could have been clearer, but I continue support the right of others to hold opinions different than my own.

 

[S&WOkie]

I just really don't understand why a couple of gun snobs from M4C think they need to come here and tell everyone they need a $200 custom barrel for their M&P9.

If you live on M4C then you need to go back home!

How would you all respond on M4C if someone showed up there telling you that the M4 sucks and you need buy something I came up with to make it worth owning, because in my mind, I know what you need.

Not everyone needs a custom gun, or a custom barrel, if you are not happy with the M&P line don't buy it, but don't try to push your wants and needs on everyone else.

Next you will be telling us the M&P15 is not mil-spec, and we need to get some custom parts from you to make into what you think it should be.

 

[C4IGrant]

Not sure I'm following this logic. Do the FS/5L 9s exhibit an extra degree of slop that is measurably greater than is the case with the compact 9s and the entire line of 40/357 pistols?

I've also begun to wonder if the rate of twist is as major a problem as has been suggested. Aren't the rates of twist the same for both the compact and FS 9s? IIRC, the M&P has something like a 1 in 18.75" twist rate. Storm Lake offers 9mm replacement is a 1 in 16". BarSto is likewise 1 in 16" on their barrels. All things being equal, wouldn't a longer barrel afford the slower twist rate a greater opportunity to better stabalize the bullet than a shorter one would?

Confounding this twist rate explanation for me, is the commonly used European faster twist rate of one turn per metre (9.84") used for their 9s. Seems like the replacement barrel twist rates (alone) aren't so radically different, as is the case with the European one, that it could majorly account for the accuracy issue.

Twist rate (IMHO) only accounts for about 1" of the problem. So while it does matter, it doesn't compare to having a good fit between the barrel hood and slide.


C4