Why all the 40 caliber bashing?

[Jeff1000]

Where does the 40 caliber bashing arise from? I hear stuff like the 40 caliber round is weak but if 40 caliber is weak, then what do you call 9mm, superweak?

Another good one I hear is that it's the "cops and robbers round". As kinda new to this stuff, none of this makes any sense to me.

What do you guys really think about this 40 caliber bashing? I want to get my head screwed on straight about this once and for all. Thanks.

 

[blujax01]

For starters, like Bert and Ernie, ammunition is an inanimate object and as such has no gender preference. Whoever is telling you otherwise is mistaken.

40 caliber, properly .40 S&W, is nicknamed Short and Weak due to the fact that it is a downgraded variant of the more powerful 10mm round.

 

[Jeff1000]

For starters, like Bert and Ernie, ammunition is an inanimate object and as such has no gender preference. Whoever is telling you otherwise is mistaken.

40 caliber, properly .40 S&W, is nicknamed Short and Weak due to the fact that it is a downgraded variant of the more powerful 10mm round.

Fair enough, but isn't 9mm a downgraded 38 Special and yet it seems to get more respect than a .40 S&W?

Very rarely do I hear the vitriol directed at the 9mm that I hear for the .40 S&W. Just wondering why. Thanks.

 

[blujax01]

Good question. I do not know.

 

[Dragon88]

Fair enough, but isn't 9mm a downgraded 38 Special

No.

As to your question, why don't you ask the people saying these things to justify their statements? Then you will know what's in their heads. We do not.

 

[scooter123]

IMO it's because there are a lot of people who will parrot stuff they have heard without thinking about it or actually doing some investigation.

For example, that 40 Short & Weak crowd. I wouldn't call a 180 grain bullet moving along at 1050 fps. weak. Yeah, it is shorter than a 10mm. However, those internal ballistics I stated for the 40 S&W are an EXACT match for the FBI 10mm load. The FBI put a lot of time and science into determining those ballistics and I trust the scientists at the FBI much much more than some internet commando. The end result is today's 40 S&W which is short enough to fit into a 9mm grip frame while matching the FBI's 10mm.

BTW, I've shot 10mm loaded to maximum from Double Tap and that stuff is hot enough that I had enough after 20 rounds.People complain that the 40 S&W is "snappy". Compared to a fully stoked 10mm in a Block 20 it's a powder puff, IMO the 10mm is just plain nasty.

I happen to believe that ammunition that is too powerful is NOT suitable for Defense use. It's impedes accurate fire when shooting in rapid fire, impedes recoil management, and impedes the firing rate. Finally, spend too much time shooting an ammunition that is too powerful and you will end up flinching. For most of us that "too powerful" threshold lies between 400 and 450 ft.lbs. in a handgun. Now someone will probably dispute this statement and for those who think I'm nuts I will simply state that the FBI Training Academy at Quantico came to that exact same conclusion.

In sum IMO the 40 S&W offers a suberb balance between Energy, Penetration, Recoil, and Capacity. So, what if it's a derivative of a semi auto caliber the proved to be too powerful, it's still a superb balance of the factors that matter.

 

[Jeff1000]

Thanks Scooter, despite the troll-like thread I started this is the type of answer I was looking for.

I asked because I was pretty much settled on an M&P40 for my first real handgun. It seemed like the perfect compromise between the seemingly "overkill" of the 45 ACP and the 9mm for concealed defense.

If I could just get beyond the hinged and pseudo DA trigger. I keep vacillating between the M&P and the Walther P99AS (which seems to have its own issues).

Anyway, I appreciate your intelligent response; I have so much to learn.

 

[Coronach]

I happen to believe that ammunition that is too powerful is NOT suitable for Defense use. It's impedes accurate fire when shooting in rapid fire, impedes recoil management, and impedes the firing rate. Finally, spend too much time shooting an ammunition that is too powerful and you will end up flinching. For most of us that "too powerful" threshold lies between 400 and 450 ft.lbs. in a handgun. Now someone will probably dispute this statement and for those who think I'm nuts I will simply state that the FBI Training Academy at Quantico came to that exact same conclusion.

In sum IMO the 40 S&W offers a suberb balance between Energy, Penetration, Recoil, and Capacity. So, what if it's a derivative of a semi auto caliber the proved to be too powerful, it's still a superb balance of the factors that matter.

This, pretty much. I especially agree that there is a bias towards people wanting elephant stomping terminal ballistics with little regard towards how shootable the round is in practical manner, and IMO practical shootability is vastly more important. The ability to put multiple rounds accurately into a target is far more important than the ability to have one marginally more powerful round followed by less accurate and slower followups.

Also, most 10/.40 bullets are built around velocities roughly appropriate to the FBI loading (with adjustments for bullet weight). How do these bullets perform when you push them 200 FPS faster? At some point the HP design will fail.

Mike



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[brucev]

Where does the 40 caliber bashing arise from? I hear stuff like the 40 caliber round is weak, but if 40 caliber is weak, then what do you call 9mm, superweak
Another good one I hear is that it's the "cops and robbers round". As kinda new to this stuff, none of this makes any sense to me.

What do you guys really think about this 40 caliber bashing? I want to get my head screwed on straight about this once and for all. Thanks.

Why all the .40 S&W bashing? Perhaps it's because it wasn't developed by the U.S. Army, John Browning, Herr Luger, one of the assorted Russians, Elmer, Askins, Skeeter, etc. Perhaps it's because S&W looked at what the FBI didn't like about the 10mm, thought hard about what was good about the 9mm and then did something called "product development" with the happy result that policemen and citizens of all walks of life now have a wonderful round that pushes 180 gr. JHP's out the barrel of nice mid-sized semi-autos that can run all the way from duty size right down to sub-compact size. What's not to like? Oh... I know... it's not big enough... or fast enough... or new enough. Oh well. You can't please everybody. From the field most reports are that those who get hit by it would rather have not have gotten in the way of where that .40 caliber slug was going! Cool.

 

[Jeff1000]

Why all the .40 S&W bashing? Perhaps it's because it wasn't developed by the U.S. Army, John Browning, Herr Luger, one of the assorted Russians, Elmer, Askins, Skeeter, etc. Perhaps it's because S&W looked at what the FBI didn't like about the 10mm, thought hard about what was good about the 9mm and then did something called "product development" with the happy result that policemen and citizens of all walks of life now have a wonderful round that pushes 180 gr. JHP's out the barrel of nice mid-sized semi-autos that can run all the way from duty size right down to sub-compact size. What's not to like? Oh... I know... it's not big enough... or fast enough... or new enough. Oh well. You can't please everybody. From the field most reports are that those who get hit by it would rather have not have gotten in the way of where that .40 caliber slug was going! Cool.

Very interesting. It sounds to me like it's more about bashing S&W, and that the .40 S&W is just a useful excuse to mask their true intent. If true it's insidious.

Thanks.

 

[M29since14]

Why all the .40 S&W bashing? Perhaps it's because it wasn't developed by the U.S. Army, John Browning, Herr Luger, one of the assorted Russians, Elmer, Askins, Skeeter, etc. Perhaps it's because S&W looked at what the FBI didn't like about the 10mm, thought hard about what was good about the 9mm and then did something called "product development" with the happy result that policemen and citizens of all walks of life now have a wonderful round that pushes 180 gr. JHP's out the barrel of nice mid-sized semi-autos that can run all the way from duty size right down to sub-compact size. What's not to like? Oh... I know... it's not big enough... or fast enough... or new enough. Oh well. You can't please everybody...

I think Brucev has a point. When S&W took the 10mm, which at that time no one except a few enthusiasts really cared much about, and made a pretty useful little round that improved on the 9mm and dispensed with the unnecessary aspects (for LE purposes) of the 10mm, they had a good and very logical idea - but they stepped squarely on the toes of the 9mm and .45 crowds, both of which have some pretty vehement advocates. To a .45 man, there is just no point in talking about anything else, and to a 9mm man, their gun is "just as good as a .45," so Bruce's last sentence that was quoted is the operative characteristic, as far as I am concerned.

 

[baccusboy]

Fair enough, but isn't 9mm a downgraded 38 Special and yet it seems to get more respect than a .40 S&W?

Very rarely do I hear the vitriol directed at the 9mm that I hear for the .40 S&W. Just wondering why. Thanks.

Land sakes, the 9mm is MORE powerful than the .38 special +P. Where did you hear this kind of talk??

 

[Jeff1000]

Land sakes, the 9mm is MORE powerful than the .38 special +P. Where did you hear this kind of talk??

I just assumed, sorry if I made a mistake. I'm at the beginning of the learning curve. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Jeff1000]

I think Brucev has a point. When S&W took the 10mm, which at that time no one except a few enthusiasts really cared much about, and made a pretty useful little round that improved on the 9mm and dispensed with the unnecessary aspects (for LE purposes) of the 10mm, they had a good and very logical idea - but they stepped squarely on the toes of the 9mm and .45 crowds, both of which have some pretty vehement advocates. To a .45 man, there is just no point in talking about anything else, and to a 9mm man, their gun is "just as good as a .45," so Bruce's last sentence that was quoted is the operative characteristic, as far as I am concerned.

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, and I know this is the S&W forum, but does that mean there is strong partisanship towards anything Smith & Wesson? I really don't know and it's an honest question. Thanks.

 

[Prof_Fate]

Gees...shame nobody reads anymore.

9mm is a high pressure round and 38 isn't. 38 dates from the black powder era, hence is huge case capicity (compared to 9mm) and lesser ballistics.

9mm was developed to shoot 115/125 gr bullets. The 147 was developed for sub-machine gun use to keep it subsonic.

Back in 1986 the FBI had a shootout in florida that showed how 'weak' 9 and 38 were in certain situations. So the 10mm was developed to 'fix' the weakness. Problem is it's very hot to shoot and in particular the women agents had issues with it. So the 40SW was the 'solution' to that - a downgraded 10mm.

When I was doing research last year to pick a caliber for myself i wanted accuracy first. All the tests in magazines often show the same gun in 9/40/45 and always (ok, 95%) the 40 is least accurate of the 3. That left 9 or 45, and 9 is about 60% the cost to shoot so I can shoot more.

The 357 mag was developed to compete with 38 Super with the goal of penetrating cars and body armor. It was carried by police for a long time - and it's still a great cartridge, but it won't really work in a semi-auto. So the 357 Sig was developed in an attempt to get 357mag ballistics into an auto pistol.

45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) was made by speer for glock and is a shorter 45ACP to better fit their pistol design demands. Several law enforcement agencies (including PA State police, my state) have chosen it as their round of choice.

The shootout in 86 story and details
The Gun Zone -- FBI Miami Firefight

Today's ammo can do what the FBI wants, even in 9mm
Hornady's Critical Duty Faces the FBI Ammunition Protocol Test - Guns & Ammo

 

[jbremount]

I agree with all the positives about the .40S&W. IMO, Some guns mainly Glocks used oversized chambers and new words like "Glock Bludge" and "KB" were associated with the .40 guns.

 

[jbremount]

The .40 is not less accurate than the 9mm or 45acp! That statement is not verified by targets shot.


A 115gr 9mm bullet cannot do what a 180-200gr .40 or .45 bullet can do.

 

[baccusboy]

I just assumed, sorry if I made a mistake. I'm at the beginning of the learning curve. Thanks for the heads up.

Oh, no problem! Welcome!

In any case, both will do the job. The .38's been getting the job done for a long, long time.

Many of us (myself included) love to talk about this and that round, feet per second, expansion, and whatnot. Truth is, though, that it's more about shot placement and adequate penetration than anything.

If you want to watch some fun videos (if you're goofy, like me) check out TNOutdoors9's videos on Youtube. Here are a few:

TNOUTDOORS9 Guns and Ammo Reviews - YouTube

You can learn A LOT about what different bullets to in similar media.

 

[Coronach]

Back in 1986 the FBI had a shootout in florida that showed how 'weak' 9 and 38 were in certain situations. So the 10mm was developed to 'fix' the weakness. Problem is it's very hot to shoot and in particular the women agents had issues with it. So the 40SW was the 'solution' to that - a downgraded 10mm.

Essentially, yes. My understanding of what actually happened was the 10mm was adopted in full house, dinosaur-stomping form, and shootability issues were noted. The FBI then did their homework and determined that the final 'FBI Load' for the 10mm was the way forward. S&W then noted that they could duplicate this load in a shorter case, which enabled them to essentially fit it into 9mm-framed guns, and the .40 S&W was born.

Ironically, the .45 GAP is to the .45 ACP what the .40 S&W is to the 10mm. So why is it floundering? Easy. The .40 was developed out of the 10mm, which was not an established caliber. The GAP took on the venerable ACP, and got its butt kicked. It may very well be a 'better' round for duty use (if not reloaders), but it costs even more than .45 ACP, when you can even find a place stocking it.

Today's ammo can do what the FBI wants, even in 9mm

Take home point. I'm a 9 is fine kinda guy, even if I have and shoot more .40 ...

Mike



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[Jeff1000]

Oh, no problem! Welcome!

In any case, both will do the job. The .38's been getting the job done for a long, long time.

Many of us (myself included) love to talk about this and that round, feet per second, expansion, and whatnot. Truth is, though, that it's more about shot placement and adequate penetration than anything.

If you want to watch some fun videos (if you're goofy, like me) check out TNOutdoors9's videos on Youtube. Here are a few:

TNOUTDOORS9 Guns and Ammo Reviews - YouTube

You can learn A LOT about what different bullets to in similar media.

Thanks for the link! I watched a video of tnoutdoors9 shooting a Remington 870 and really enjoyed it. In fact an 870 is going to be my first purchase. I didn't know he had all those videos. I liked his no nonsense knowledgable style. Thanks again.