Keith .38/44 load

[BruceM]

Pressures do go up & down at temperature extremes. Up with high temps and down with low.

Bruce

 

[Hoptob]

Some brands of 38 special brass seem to be softer than others. With heavy SR4756 loads I had sticky extraction of Winchester brass but S&B brand gave me no trouble at all. Go figure... These loads were much hotter than THE LOAD though. Maybe you just want to try different brand of brass?

I often get flat primers with 357mag loads even when they are well within current recommendations. Here are some examples, primers in handloads were WSP and WSPM.

I could be wrong but I just don't worry about flat primers any more.

Here is an quote from Skeeter about his 2400 loads. He was talking about lighter bullet - normal and HP 358156, but I thought it was interesting.

Like most other handgunners, I have loaded more .38 Specials than any other caliber. Unlike most others, I have eschewed the popular full wadcutter bullet and the ultra-light loads with which it is usually associated. The two .38 molds that do most of my work are the Lyman 357446 and their 356156 which is almost identical except that it wears a gas check. Both bullets are cast 1 to 15 tin-in-lead and sized .357".

As accurate as the wadcutters at close range, these bullets cut just as clean a hole in the target and maintain accuracy and killing power at much longer distances.

For heavy duty .38 Special and .357 Magnum loading the 358156 gas check shoots much cleaner than any plain base bullet. It is possibly the most accurate cast bullet I have used, and is an excellent game getter. The HP version offers spectacular expansion, and the solid gives the utmost in combined penetration and shock in its category, being particularly satisfactory for taking small table game without unwanted meat damage.

The 358156 has two crimping grooves. The upper is used when loading .357 cases and standard velocity .38 Special loads. When seated out to the lower crimp groove in .38 Special cases, more powder space is gained, and a very powerful load of 13.5 gr. of 2400 may be used in these cases, giving around 1150 fps. I emphasize that these heavy .38 Special cartridges should only be fired from .357 Magnum revolvers or from .45 frame .38 Special sixguns such as the Colt SA, Colt New Service, or S&W .38-44. While I have fired this round from K-frame Smith & Wessons and Colt Officers' Models on occasion with no visible ill effects, these lighter revolvers were not designed for such heavy loads, and I definitely do not recommend the practice. Since I commonly carry this round for everyday use in my .357 guns, I have taken more game with it than any other individual handload, up to and including antelope, turkey, and javelina.

Some loading manuals list the 358156 HP bullet with as much as 16 gr. of 2400 in .357 cases, a top load which gives about 1600 fps velocity. Although well below the acceptable factory pressure level, this load is a bit hot, and I prefer 15 gr. of 2400 for better accuracy, less recoil, and longer case life.

Mike

 

[Skip Sackett]

Just a caution!

Pressures do go up & down at temperature extremes. Up with high temps and down with low.

Bruce

It can be the opposite of that too Bruce. Take Blue Dot for instance. It can get really weird at temperatures under freezing, especially around 0 degrees F.

 

[BruceM]

Blue Dot can do unusual things-period. I only use it in full power 10mm ammo and, to be honest, when my current supply is gone I'll buy no more. In that round AA#7 works better for me.

Bruce

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Tried 12.5 grains today in my 5 inch 27. Cases fell out when the gun was turned muzzle up and primers slightly flat, but rounded at the edges. Average velocity was 1233 fps.

 

[Landric]

To revive this discussion:

I loaded up some .38 Specials recently and tested them today. 13.0 grains of 2400, 173 grain Keith SWC cast with my Ideal 358429 mold, CBC (Magtech) brass, Federal SP Primers, crimped in the crimp grove (I don't have the OAL data in front of me).

Here is what I found:

4" S&W 681-3, Ave. 1201 fps, SD 17.48, 554 ft.-lbs. energy

2 1/4" Ruger SP101, Ave. 1096 fps, SD 17.93, 462 ft.-lbs energy

Extraction was slightly sticky, but only slightly. Primers were flattened a little bit, but less than a lot of factory .357 Magnum loads I have fired. Overall, I'd say the load was safe, but I wouldn't want to push it any harder. I think I'm going to load up some with 12 and 12.5 grains of 2400 and see how that effects performance.

With the same bullet, primers, and powder charge in Federal .357 Magnum cases I got these results:

681: Ave. 1028 fps, SD 25.17, 398 ft.-lbs. energy
SP101: Ave. 959 fps, SD 11.24, 347 ft.-lbs. energy

Using .38 Special cases significantly increased performance.

 

[50 target]

I tried that whiz bang 38 spl. load once., 13.5 gr. 2400 and a 158 lswc and managed to fire 6 of them and when I had trouble getting them to eject, I gave them up. Also shot some of the old Western lubaloy 357 mag loads with the soft lubaloy bullet and it tied up a 19-2 for three consecutive shots and leaded like hades. Gave them up also. If I want 357 performance I'll load 357 cases. Easier on me and my guns.

 

[ddixie884]

Those Western lead bullet loads would really lead.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Here are Keith's loads, some of them at least for handguns.

It would seem to me that being on the safe side I would use the 12gr load for starters that he recommends for the C**t handguns.

Sometimes what is perceived as something by one is not what is perceived by another.

Flattened primers is subjective. Sticky extraction is too, as we discussed earlier. If there is any rounded part left to the primer, I don't consider them flattened. Others have another interpretation of them though.

Interesting loads. Considering .38 Special, I load my backup/outdoor defense loads at 5.0 grains of unique for a 158 gr LSWC bullet (practically the same load E. Keith recommends) Velocity out of a 4 inch barrel is around 950 ft per second.

Interesting the he recommends 12 grains of 2400 in .38 special. I assume Colt .41 DA frame means the Colt Official Police. (which is what I use) 38 Special +P Load Data - Handloads.Com The maximum Alliant recommends for .38 Special+P is 7.8 grains recommending starting at 7. The max I have gone is 7.4. And Keith is recommending 12 grains?!!!!!!!! did I miss something?

 

[Ceapea]

The maximum Alliant recommends for .38 Special+P is 7.8 grains recommending starting at 7. The max I have gone is 7.4. And Keith is recommending 12 grains?!!!!!!!! did I miss something?

I think that this 12gr load has been proven but, Kieth was know to have blown up at least a few guns performing his "testing".
Use at your own risk!

 

[Skip Sackett]

I think that this 12gr load has been proven but, Kieth was know to have blown up at least a few guns performing his "testing".
Use at your own risk!

Please provide proof that they were 38spl firearms.

 

[358156hp]

Ya know, a guy blows up a few rickety old Colt SAAs a hundred years ago, and he never gets to live it down!

The most commonly perpetuated story is when he loaded a 45 Colt SAA with a 300 gr (45-90?) rifle bullet and all the black powder he could get in a balloon head case. It worked for a while, but finally one let go. Elmer quit trying to make the 45 Colt a top performer since the guns then available couldn't reliably handle the stress, and moved on the the 44 Spl, which has thicker cylinder walls. Not long after that, Hercules 2400 entered the market, and the legend was born.

 

[Doug.38PR]

The Keith article posted above indicates it's for .38 Special revolvers and says .38 Heavy Duty S&W or .41 Colt DA frame when it calls for it

 

[Cerberus62]

The image Skip posted was from the 1980 era, when it was Hercules 2400. The load I posted was using 2004 vintage Alliant 2400. That leads me to believe there isn't an appreciable difference between the two powders, at least in the lot I have.

If there was more than lot to lot variation, they would be calling the new powder 2399 or 2401, not 2400.

Excellent point! I hear the same said about old / new Unique.

If the powder's performance changed enough to make the pre-change data obsolete they would just re-issue it under a new name.

On another point, H110 and Winchester 296 were/are considered to be the same powder using identical data.

In the 80's I used both and the powders were physically different.

The 296 looked like it does now, dark, small balls. The H110 was a bright silvery gray and with much finer grains.

Performance was similar, but not identical in grain-for-grain loads.

 

[Cerberus62]

Interesting loads. The maximum Alliant recommends for .38 Special+P is 7.8 grains recommending starting at 7. The max I have gone is 7.4. And Keith is recommending 12 grains?!!!!!!!! did I miss something?

Alliant's .38 Special data has come way down over the years.

They and Hodgdon also use ridiculously long barrels in both .38 (7.5 & 7.75) and Hodgdon uses 10" in .357.

I think they do this to show higher velocities while user the lighter, safer data. Most people choose data on velocity, and with both of their online data resources they do not show the barrel length.

I just looked at my Speer #10 & #11 .38 data, widely regarded as safe. Their write up says the .38 Standard loads are held to 18,900 psi and the +P are held to 22,500psi.

Today the 18,500 is the +P standard.

 

[Ceapea]

Please provide proof that they were 38spl firearms.

Hey, I did say "I think".
If the 12gr, 2400 load is so far over book today (and not by just a little), why risk injury or worse.
I know that most factory loads today are not what they used to be but a 45% over charge might be asking for trouble.
Just saying!

 

[keith44spl]

I've used the 2400 load as above with both the Thompson gas checked as well as the plain flat base heavier 358429 SWC.

No worries here.......




Any of y'all remember that of the Norma & ol Super-Vel days of really flattened primers and sticky extraction?

Sometimes primes would fall out and ya would have to jar the ejector rod on the wagon tongue!

Now, those were the Days!


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Skip Sackett]

Hey, I did say "I think".
If the 12gr, 2400 load is so far over book today (and not by just a little), why risk injury or worse.
I know that most factory loads today are not what they used to be but a 45% over charge might be asking for trouble.
Just saying!

No, what he said was: "I think that this 12gr load has been proven but......." and then he goes on to mention blown up guns.

Listen, this is how rumors and Internet lies get spread. Elmer blew up 45 Colt guns trying to make them into the "45 Magnum", he may have blown up a few 44Spl guns on his way to the 44Mag but, the poster of the previous statement is misleading someone to think that they were 38spl guns with the 12gr 2400gr load, fallacy, plain and simple.

If it was a 12gr load of a fast powder, yeah, maybe, but it isn't. If it was in a pot metal special, yeah, maybe, but they weren't, they were S&W "N" frames & 45 framed Colts.

I wonder about some folks from time to time! As the youngsters put it: SMH! (Shaking My Head)

 

[David LaPell]

I have an Outdoorsman that I have shot lots of the #358429's through and even though 13.0 grains of 2400 is a hot load, I prefer and my gun shoots more accurately with 12.5 grains of 2400 with that bullet. I use good Winchester +P cases and CCI standard primers and the velocity is a tad over 1,200 fps with the 6 1/2 inch barrel.

 

[Skip Sackett]

And David, I'd have NO PROBLEM running them in any one of my "L" frames either. They are built to take it. Now a "K" frame that has a hard time holding the 357Mag, such as in the M19, might be a different story or my preference NOT to shoot them in it.

I do have an interesting 160gr bullet for it though. Well, two, actually. Take a peek: