I Had An Interesting Talk Yesterday....

[cmort666]

You would be correct. The Japanese were brutal. But not all of the Japanese army were actually of Japanese descent. And the Japanese were very brutal on their own people too.

With the exception of the native Taiwanese who made up one of the Japanese airborne units, the VAST majority of the Japanese MILITARY were ethnic Japanese.

Ethnic Koreans and others were used as guards and in other functions in much the same way that Ukrainians, Latvians and others were used by the Germans. However, they were actually considered CIVILIAN contractors for the most part. As a general rule, they were treated badly by the Japanese. They in turn passed this cruelty along to Allied P.O.W.s and civilian internees.

Institutional cruelty and indeed sadism were the norm in the Japanese military. During the Battle of Okinawa, Okinawan civilians were forced by Japanese troops to murder their families then kill themselves rather than surrender... those same troops themselves then surrendering to U.S. forces. The incidence of rape of Okinawan civilians by JAPANESE troops DURING the battle was astonishingly high.

 

[cmort666]

You know what I mean.

I guess not.

What did you mean?

 

[Kanewpadle]

With the exception of the native Taiwanese who made up one of the Japanese airborne units, the VAST majority of the Japanese MILITARY were ethnic Japanese.

Ethnic Koreans and others were used as guards and in other functions in much the same way that Ukrainians, Latvians and others were used by the Germans. However, they were actually considered CIVILIAN contractors for the most part. As a general rule, they were treated badly by the Japanese. They in turn passed this cruelty along to Allied P.O.W.s and civilian internees.

Institutional cruelty and indeed sadism were the norm in the Japanese military. During the Battle of Okinawa, Okinawan civilians were forced by Japanese troops to murder their families then kill themselves rather than surrender... those same troops themselves then surrendering to U.S. forces. The incidence of rape of Okinawan civilians by JAPANESE troops DURING the battle was astonishingly high.

I don't disagree with what you say. However, much of the information written about the war with Japan as well as other countries is merely opinion and hearsay. Only recently has information been factual.

Much of this happened because both sides wanted to show the world how brutal each country was. And quite often the information was formed out of hate and contempt for the other country. Propaganda was also blamed for much misinformation.

Sometimes the facts were twisted to make a country, it's military, and it's people look good.

 

[cmort666]

I don't disagree with what you say. However, much of the information written about the war with Japan as well as other countries is merely opinion and hearsay. Only recently has information been factual.

Much of this happened because both sides wanted to show the world how brutal each country was. And quite often the information was formed out of hate and contempt for the other country. Propaganda was also blamed for much misinformation.

Sometimes the facts were twisted to make a country, it's military, and it's people look good.

I rely upon serious historical works like Toland's "The Rising Sun", Ienaga's "The Pacific War" and Coox's "Nomonhan".

A good resource for detailed information on the Japanese military is the Oprey "Men at Arms" series of books. There's a volume on Japanese airborne forces which includes information on the Taiwanese airborne unit.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I rely upon serious historical works like Toland's "The Rising Sun", Ienaga's "The Pacific War" and Coox's "Nomonhan".

A good resource for detailed information on the Japanese military is the Oprey "Men at Arms" series of books. There's a volume on Japanese airborne forces which includes information on the Taiwanese airborne unit.

I get all my information from my mother. She was on Okinawa when the US invaded. She was 10 years old and forced to hide in the mountains.

I don't doubt your sources. Mainly because I know nothing abut them. But I have been to Okinawa and Japan many times as a child and an adult. You couldn't always believe what you read or were told. Especially immediately after the war when both sides were trying to make the other look bad.

Read "Sorties Into Hell". Another example of brutality which took many years to uncover.

 

[cmort666]

I get all my information from my mother. She was on Okinawa when the US invaded. She was 10 years old and forced to hide in the mountains.

I don't doubt your sources. Mainly because I know nothing abut them. But I have been to Okinawa and Japan many times as a child and an adult. You couldn't always believe what you read or were told. Especially immediately after the war when both sides were trying to make the other look bad.

Read "Sorties Into Hell". Another example of brutality which took many years to uncover.

You might want to read the book "Tennozan". It's a collection of oral accounts of the Battle of Okinawa by Japanese who were there. It gives you a very good idea of what invasions of Kyushu and Honshu would have been like. The Japanese military didn't have the slightest concern for JAPANESE civilian casualties.

 

[silentflyer]

The bombing of Berlin,Hamburg,Rotterdam,Tokyo,Hiroshima,Nagasaki, etc., came AFTER the bombing of Warsaw,London,Coventry,Nanking,Pearl harbor,Manila, and many other Allied cities. I don't ever remember reading anything about out rage in Berlin or Tokyo when the targets were elsewhere, not at home.

 

[Gamecock]

The bombing of Berlin,Hamburg,Rotterdam,Tokyo,Hiroshima,Nagasaki, etc., came AFTER the bombing of Warsaw,London,Coventry,Nanking,Pearl harbor,Manila, and many other Allied cities. I don't ever remember reading anything about out rage in Berlin or Tokyo when the targets were elsewhere, not at home.

It also came after the bombing of Fredricksburg, Vicksburg, and Petersburg. Funny morals these Americans have.

 

[Gamecock]

Not true in my opinion. The discussion above was, I believe, about the bombing in Europe that took place under Roosevelt until his death on April 12, 1945. The ensuing president, Harry Truman, was initially briefed on the new atomic bomb on the same day as Roosevelt's death. Less than a month later, Truman declared victory in Europe on May 8, 1945. Because of the Japanese refusal to surrender, Truman authorized the use of this new technology in August of 1945. At that time, no-one, not even the people that designed and built the bomb, had any idea of the destructive force that would actually be unleashed when and IF it detonated as planned. It is estimated today that (A) an invasion of Japan might have taken a year or more to complete, (B) up to a half million American lives were probably saved by dropping those bombs versus a U.S. (not allies) invasion of the Japanese mainland, and (C) may have cost several billions of dollars. Understand, all this went down under a new president who was much more tenacious than Roosevelt and at a time when the U.S. public and the rest of the world was at witts end with the war - everyone wanted it over and done with.

So, my response to your claim that the U.S. and its allies (again, we had no allies fighting Japan with us) "targeted civilians" and civilians specifically is this - Sorry sir, but your theory doesn't hold water with me. Truman did the only thing he could have done at that time and saved the lives of countless Americans and Japanese which ultimately brought a quick end to the war. Again, I go back to a previous statement I made when I say civilians weren't the actual targets but they were sadly in the way of the military might of the nations that started the war in the first place.

Trinity.

You are surprisingly uninformed for a reb.

 

[silentflyer]

Gamecock: Never realized that aircraft were used in the Civil War..

 

[PA Reb]

Trinity.

You are surprisingly uninformed for a reb.

Ah, now your true colors are coming out! I'm not going to argue with you - I have my opinion and you have yours. I could really care less if you think I'm uninformed especially when the statement comes from someone who I now know is uninformed. I posted this thread as a human interest story and really don't care to have it break down into a who's right / wrong argument. I've debated WW II and the war fought for southern independence in the U.S. for many years with scholars with vast amounts of knowledge on both topics, much more knowledge than I could ever hope to have. Funny thing is, they knew exactly what they were talking about and never once resorted to name calling. End of discussion for me.