I could see dept issued firearms having "X" amount of trigger weight to prevent possible ND but it makes for a horrible shooting handgun. An example would be that somewhat recent NYPD shooting. I have far more faith in my 1911 with a light crisp trigger in putting rounds on target than say my keltec P11.
Modify a carry pistol? Yes or No?
- Thread starter Repli-can't
- Start date
Here we go again, It does not matter if you modify the gun and carry reloads. A clean shoot is a clean shoot, Justifiable is Justifiable. after all my light trigger makes me shoot more accurate, accurate =safer. My reloads are more accurate Accurate=safer. and if its a justifiable shoot I have no worries.
B.S. people guess what (I say this weekly in my classes), the shooter is not the one, who stamps the case file JUSTIFIABLE the PROSECUTOR does that if the PROSECUTOR does not like the fact you have a HAIR TRIGGER and were using KILLER AMMO in your modified gun they may hold off using that justifiable stamp on your case file.
That's My stance on this issue.
Cracker57
B.S. people guess what (I say this weekly in my classes), the shooter is not the one, who stamps the case file JUSTIFIABLE the PROSECUTOR does that if the PROSECUTOR does not like the fact you have a HAIR TRIGGER and were using KILLER AMMO in your modified gun they may hold off using that justifiable stamp on your case file.
That's My stance on this issue.
Cracker57
The Tourist
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I've always read that a modified pistol will get you barbequed in court. But I'll tell you what I do.
I have had a long association with custom gunsmith Terry Tussey. Like many others, he has a service called a "reliability package."
If I sent him a 1911 for this service, he would polish the feed-ramp and breech face, clean up the trigger and inspect the sear, check out the ejector and extractor and go through my magazines.
On my pistols I ask him to make sure the trigger is +5 pounds, and that the safety is modified to make it harder than normal to disengage. Not only is his stuff crisp, but if confronted, my adrenaline will be pumping and even a 12 pound trigger will feel 'normal.'
Of course, he documents these changes.
In other words, I bend over backwards to check out these pistols, and have an expert document the conditions. Just to make sure, periodically my stuff goes back to him for tune-ups. That is documented, as well.
I have had a long association with custom gunsmith Terry Tussey. Like many others, he has a service called a "reliability package."
If I sent him a 1911 for this service, he would polish the feed-ramp and breech face, clean up the trigger and inspect the sear, check out the ejector and extractor and go through my magazines.
On my pistols I ask him to make sure the trigger is +5 pounds, and that the safety is modified to make it harder than normal to disengage. Not only is his stuff crisp, but if confronted, my adrenaline will be pumping and even a 12 pound trigger will feel 'normal.'
Of course, he documents these changes.
In other words, I bend over backwards to check out these pistols, and have an expert document the conditions. Just to make sure, periodically my stuff goes back to him for tune-ups. That is documented, as well.
waynesigmeister
Member
I have the S&W M&P 40FS which I carry on duty for armed security work after I retired as a LEO. I made only two modifications to the gun. I added Trijicon night sights and DCAEK trigger set. The trigger pull is less than stock but it is at about 5lbs. I carry Hornaday TAP 155 JHP ammo.
Cracker has it about right, look there are tooooo many out of work/starving lawyers who will take any deep pockets or otherwise possible, settle out of court case. Even murderers and rapist shot in the act have had lawsuit filed for them.
A bad or accidental shooting on your part will be hard to justify and could possibly be made worse by some outrageous modifications, that might be construed as some type of gross negligence ( 1lb trigger on duty type gun.)
Your safest bet is to have any work done by the factory, then at least they may stand behind you if (BIG IF) something causes the gun to go off on its own(act of God).
Honestly no modification takes the place of serious, proper practice.Most self defense type shooters would be better of spending money for (good) training or ammo to shoot more on your own.
What sinks alot of cases, or at least gives them an opening are things like, undocumented/or no training,improper statements, like "I didnt mean to shoot" or such, and lying (in this day of cameras everywhere) will sink you alot faster, than a set of new tactical sights, or high powered ammunition.( READ this as KEEP MOUTH SHUT!)Learned that at an early age!!!
I had an example one day, certain gun distributer was selling guns with "THE BIG WHOMPER" laser etched on the slide, I advised a young guy that that may not be the best idea for a self defense weapon and why, though unhappy, he understood.
There are no positively safe or for sure rules, I've always gone by the old "rather judged by 12,than carried by 6 rule." MY 35 yr experience ..02 worth.
Good Luck , save your money, take care of your family, and maybe we will all servive the next 4 years. Merry Christmas. B
A bad or accidental shooting on your part will be hard to justify and could possibly be made worse by some outrageous modifications, that might be construed as some type of gross negligence ( 1lb trigger on duty type gun.)
Your safest bet is to have any work done by the factory, then at least they may stand behind you if (BIG IF) something causes the gun to go off on its own(act of God).
Honestly no modification takes the place of serious, proper practice.Most self defense type shooters would be better of spending money for (good) training or ammo to shoot more on your own.
What sinks alot of cases, or at least gives them an opening are things like, undocumented/or no training,improper statements, like "I didnt mean to shoot" or such, and lying (in this day of cameras everywhere) will sink you alot faster, than a set of new tactical sights, or high powered ammunition.( READ this as KEEP MOUTH SHUT!)Learned that at an early age!!!
I had an example one day, certain gun distributer was selling guns with "THE BIG WHOMPER" laser etched on the slide, I advised a young guy that that may not be the best idea for a self defense weapon and why, though unhappy, he understood.
There are no positively safe or for sure rules, I've always gone by the old "rather judged by 12,than carried by 6 rule." MY 35 yr experience ..02 worth.
Good Luck , save your money, take care of your family, and maybe we will all servive the next 4 years. Merry Christmas. B
Doug M.
Member
Oh ARGH. This topic area comes up regularly on forums and is a constant source of frustration. The legal/social environment varies so much between states that specific research is going to be needed. I live and work in Washington, but what might happen here compared to Illinois where I used to be, or someplace really evil like NJ or California is not generalizable. One also has to understand the difference between civil and criminal exposure. Different standards of conduct, and different burdens of proof.
Here, I have some big institutional advantages, and others based on my experience. A huge one is that under Washington law, any form of civil recovery by an offender injured as a consequence their commission of a felony is barred by statute. Break into someone's house, and their landshark chews off a leg, followed by a couple gunshot wounds etc - tough. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Criminal exposure to a citizen using force in opposition to criminal activity is not likely, either. Even in the People's Republic of the I5 Corridor, the odds of a prosecutor filing a case against a citizen for an arguable use of force are modest at most. It's too politically costly, and it is also expensive.
I've also been a cop and prosecutor in two states. I handle both violent felonies and some civil matters, am comfortable in the courtroom, and like to fight. I have also written on use of force and other legal and training issues for LE, and have access to a lot of savvy potential expert witnesses. I actually know what I am talking about in a legal analysis or conflict about use of force; most lawyers (including criminal practitioners) and judges don't. I have had some pretty stupid comments made by defense attorneys whining about injuries to their clients resulting from fights with cops and citizens; a couple times I have been surprised I managed to get out of court without dropping an F-bomb on the record.
Most modifications to a firearm that are designed and correctly implemented to improve performance in that setting are not admissible in a criminal proceeding about an intentional shooting. Grips that fit; better sights including an RDS; a trigger that improves the likelihood of accurate shooting without deviating from safety practices (remember rule 3, which is more important than the mechanical issues anyway) etc - non-issues that should not be admissible under ER401/403 unless they can be used somehow to show some form of criminal premeditation on the part of the shooter. (Which is where the social/political issues come into play; in some places, the hostility to armed citizens may be such that this could be a problem.) I would not worry at all about using the APEX duty/carry kits for a better/smoother trigger. However, if you are worried about reset, and that is the driving incentive, slap yourself. That is a competition/target shooting concept and has no place in a discussion of fighting technique.
More likely to be a problem is an internet search that reveals some of the dumb comments I have seen on other forums (like shoot shovel and shut up; advocating shooting trespassers without any other indication of potential risk of death/GBH being presented to the shooter, etc).
Mas advocates positions based on his experiences, but they are context driven. Many of the cases that formed his views are (relatively) long ago, and we have a lot of improved knowledge on the legal and tactical analysis, and some statutory changes such as the immunities we have here in Washington and other states. The trend is away from the outcomes about which he has been concerned, at least in my experience.
Here, I have some big institutional advantages, and others based on my experience. A huge one is that under Washington law, any form of civil recovery by an offender injured as a consequence their commission of a felony is barred by statute. Break into someone's house, and their landshark chews off a leg, followed by a couple gunshot wounds etc - tough. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Criminal exposure to a citizen using force in opposition to criminal activity is not likely, either. Even in the People's Republic of the I5 Corridor, the odds of a prosecutor filing a case against a citizen for an arguable use of force are modest at most. It's too politically costly, and it is also expensive.
I've also been a cop and prosecutor in two states. I handle both violent felonies and some civil matters, am comfortable in the courtroom, and like to fight. I have also written on use of force and other legal and training issues for LE, and have access to a lot of savvy potential expert witnesses. I actually know what I am talking about in a legal analysis or conflict about use of force; most lawyers (including criminal practitioners) and judges don't. I have had some pretty stupid comments made by defense attorneys whining about injuries to their clients resulting from fights with cops and citizens; a couple times I have been surprised I managed to get out of court without dropping an F-bomb on the record.
Most modifications to a firearm that are designed and correctly implemented to improve performance in that setting are not admissible in a criminal proceeding about an intentional shooting. Grips that fit; better sights including an RDS; a trigger that improves the likelihood of accurate shooting without deviating from safety practices (remember rule 3, which is more important than the mechanical issues anyway) etc - non-issues that should not be admissible under ER401/403 unless they can be used somehow to show some form of criminal premeditation on the part of the shooter. (Which is where the social/political issues come into play; in some places, the hostility to armed citizens may be such that this could be a problem.) I would not worry at all about using the APEX duty/carry kits for a better/smoother trigger. However, if you are worried about reset, and that is the driving incentive, slap yourself. That is a competition/target shooting concept and has no place in a discussion of fighting technique.
More likely to be a problem is an internet search that reveals some of the dumb comments I have seen on other forums (like shoot shovel and shut up; advocating shooting trespassers without any other indication of potential risk of death/GBH being presented to the shooter, etc).
Mas advocates positions based on his experiences, but they are context driven. Many of the cases that formed his views are (relatively) long ago, and we have a lot of improved knowledge on the legal and tactical analysis, and some statutory changes such as the immunities we have here in Washington and other states. The trend is away from the outcomes about which he has been concerned, at least in my experience.
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dereksfl
Member
Doug M: You hit the nail on the head. Thanks, I couldn't have said it better!
Just in my opinion some people are too paranoid. Some will go and use the same bullets as local LEO because they think somehow if using a certain hollow point the prosecutor will turn it against you and it will look bad in front of a jury. Personally I don't get all the paranoia. I modify my guns to help me to become a more proficient shooter. I wouldn't consider carrying a gun that I had trouble with accuracy due to a hard trigger pull, which is why I put a DCAEK in my M&P40 before carrying it.
Imagine having your heart pounding, adrenaline coming on, and quickly trying to draw and get a center mass shot off before the BG does with a gun you are not the most accurate with while at a range taking your time. Even with a smooth 5lbs trigger it can be a challenge in those conditions. I know plenty of people will disagree either way you go. Really it's for you to decide. Do what makes you the most confident in your shooting ability.
Imagine having your heart pounding, adrenaline coming on, and quickly trying to draw and get a center mass shot off before the BG does with a gun you are not the most accurate with while at a range taking your time. Even with a smooth 5lbs trigger it can be a challenge in those conditions. I know plenty of people will disagree either way you go. Really it's for you to decide. Do what makes you the most confident in your shooting ability.
10mmauto
Member
No.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MaximumLawman
Member
I can think of no reason why you'd need to modify a quality handgun for self-defense purposes other than things like grips, sights, etc.... Target gun, sure...But self defense? Why?
Having said that, I've been a policeman for a long time also and I can't recall it being an issue unless the defendant brought it up himself to mitigate the charges he was facing. By that, I mean: Bad guys shoots someone...If he meant to do it, that's 1st Degree Murder...plead down to 2nd Degree...If he didn't mean to shoot him and the gun "went off" due to modifications....that's 2nd Degree or maybe even Manslaughter...
But to look back over 30 years to find a case and say "that guy was charged with a crime only because he shot someone with a modified gun": Nope. I can't think of any offhand.
But when the standard of proof is lowered from "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal court all the way down to "by a preponderance of the evidence...." You get the wrong judge or jury in a civil case and your action job could cost you or whomever is (hopefully) indemnifying you a bunch of money....
Having said that, I've been a policeman for a long time also and I can't recall it being an issue unless the defendant brought it up himself to mitigate the charges he was facing. By that, I mean: Bad guys shoots someone...If he meant to do it, that's 1st Degree Murder...plead down to 2nd Degree...If he didn't mean to shoot him and the gun "went off" due to modifications....that's 2nd Degree or maybe even Manslaughter...
But to look back over 30 years to find a case and say "that guy was charged with a crime only because he shot someone with a modified gun": Nope. I can't think of any offhand.
But when the standard of proof is lowered from "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal court all the way down to "by a preponderance of the evidence...." You get the wrong judge or jury in a civil case and your action job could cost you or whomever is (hopefully) indemnifying you a bunch of money....
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Can ANY of the people that say DONT modify a pistol trigger share a SINGLE case where in a self defense shooting a modified trigger caused a problem for the legal shooter?
ANYONE?
Bueller?
I think people are being paranoid a bit here.
I think people arent wise that reduce their trigger pull below 4 lbs, because of the higher odds of a
negligent discharge.
I sleep fine with a trigger on my M&P modified to 4.5 plus pounds.
I dont aim at anything I dont intend to shoot
I dont have my finger in the trigger well unless i intend to shoot
I wont put myself at risk for $120 bucks in the 7-11 drawer unless an
innocent is at risk.
ANYONE?
Bueller?
I think people are being paranoid a bit here.
I think people arent wise that reduce their trigger pull below 4 lbs, because of the higher odds of a
negligent discharge.
I sleep fine with a trigger on my M&P modified to 4.5 plus pounds.
I dont aim at anything I dont intend to shoot
I dont have my finger in the trigger well unless i intend to shoot
I wont put myself at risk for $120 bucks in the 7-11 drawer unless an
innocent is at risk.
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Jyezahn
US Veteran
Why would you want to be more accurate with a "target gun" than with the gun you carry for self defense?
I want to be as accurate as possible when shooting. I want to be able to know exactly when my trigger is going to break and send that round down range and into its intended target. I go to the range all the time, practice drawing and getting on target when I'm at home, all so if I need to use it in self defense, it will be somewhat ingrained and automatic. Train how you fight.
Jyezahn
US Veteran
rraisley
Member
You might not /want/ to be, but you're almost certainly /going/ to be. A "target gun" will generally have a longer sight radius, adjustable sights, be larger and heavier, possibly a wider grip, red dot or scope, all of which make it impractical as a carry gun.
When I shot bullseye (before the age of red dot sights and such), I had to pretty consistently hit within a 3" circle at 50 yards. There is no reason for a carry or self defense gun to be that accurate. Heck, if the zombies are still at 50 yards, I'll use a rifle!
Jyezahn
US Veteran
You might not /want/ to be, but you're almost certainly /going/ to be. A "target gun" will generally have a longer sight radius, adjustable sights, be larger and heavier, possibly a wider grip, red dot or scope, all of which make it impractical as a carry gun.
When I shot bullseye (before the age of red dot sights and such), I had to pretty consistently hit within a 3" circle at 50 yards. There is no reason for a carry or self defense gun to be that accurate. Heck, if the zombies are still at 50 yards, I'll use a rifle!
I understand what you're saying, and your definition of a target gun. My "target gun" is also my carry gun. Like I said before, I want to be able to put those rounds in the spot that I choose, whether shooting at paper, metal, or human flesh.
rraisley
Member
No argument there. But I enjoyed target shooting for 45 years before I considered a self defense gun. And I still enjoy true target shooting, of which none of my SD guns are really capable of. But I still, like you, want to shoot them as well as I can, just in case.
Jyezahn
US Veteran
Gotcha. If you want to see some awesome shots, check out 22plinkster on YouTube. Mad skills!
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