Blew up my 629 today..embarrassed

[varmint243]

I have been reading about gun blowups since I started reloading in the mid-eighties. Back when all that were available was reloading manuals, Hatcher's notebook and rec.guns. I do also have some scientific testing background and have been following this thread closely.

It seems to me that no new data exists to scientifically prove or disprove detonation.

I believe that because detonation cant be reliably reproduced on-demand in a laboratory doesn't mean that it cannot happen.

If I were doing any other testing and there was an anomaly in my test data I would simply throw the data out and review my testing and test strategy and start over.

In the case of gun blow-ups the data can't just be ignored.

It is very easy for a powder manufacturer to create a triple or quadruple charge, and the last I read the testing that was done would not produce this type of damage. It has not been possible to reproduce on demand a detonation.

I believe that if the wrong type of powder or a quadruple charge was the case, there would be other evidence such as other rounds with charge or powder errors, such as no charge or multiple charges in cases remaining in ammo from that batch.

I am very interested in any more information that can be found or revealed. I do not think this is a case where I would be so bold as to specifically blame anyone or anything.

Thank you for an interesting post and the recently added pics.
This is good information for all of us who reload to consider.

 

[dutch686]

I'll share anything I can, but it would help to get questions. Not sure what people want to knpw

 

[varmint243]

I'll share anything I can, but it would help to get questions. Not sure what people want to knpw

I think a lot of that information is already in this thread.
Have you broken down and checked the remaining cartridges from that batch ? I was also curious about any bulge in the barrel. Any chance you can get a pic of the bore ?

I like lots of pictures

 

[dutch686]

I can do pics. I haven't pulled any rounds apart yet, but I will tonight. I'm a little camera challenged but I should be able to manage a bore pic. There is no swell of the barrel running my hand along it, and the bore is clear of obstructions.

 

[swampersand]

I reload, but in no way am I as experienced as many of you, so I'll ask a perhaps silly question. If a standard charge, such as you were loading, were faced with a very heavily crimped projectile, couldn't the internal pressure of the cartridge far exceed the published pressures for that load? Carrying it to the extreme, if the cartride case were sealed somehow, what would the resulting discharge look like? In my mind, the pressure generated in the first few microseconds of ignition could produce horrendous pressures.

If you, for example used a LEE factory crimp and really screwed it down, or if you used the normal crimp on an overlength cartridge but didn't collapse the cartridge case could the conditions become explosive?

 

[Maximumbob54]

Thank you for the pics. This is by no means and indictment on you but you have to admit the interwebz can be ripe with trolls. Pics show proof.

I would be really curious about the powder charge you find when you start pulling bullets.

I have no idea how magnum primers act with fast burning powders. Is there any chance of magnum primers causing this kind of damage?

 

[Bullseye Smith]

I use Tite-group in all of my handgun loads, to easy to get powers mixed up in my Dillon quick change heads. Getting a double charge is easy to do if you don't watch and look for it.

 

[semperfi71]

To the OP, I am glad you are okay.

Early on, in the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting, a number of competitors were attempting to produce reloads of very low velocity with very light bullets. As in a 100 grain lead .38 Special to about 500 fps (or slower).

They began using the faster burning powders in small amounts to attain this. They were almost all using progressive presses. A number of them began to get blown handguns. If the "Detonation Theory" wasn't knowlegeable then, these CAS shooters were helping it along.

It was later found that is was easy to double-charge a progressive press load and never catch it. I think some better loading techniques and "revised" equipment helped to solve the double-charges.

In some situations I can see where a double-charge of a load MAY not be so powerful as to blow up a gun, but it may stick some cases.

I load on an old (that dates me!) RCBS Jr single stage. I use a load block but I weigh all charges (in most instances) and I powder only five cases at a time. Then I visually check the interior case "fill" and then I seat the bullets. Then on to the next five.

HOWEVER...I have found myself letting my mind wander and as I seat a bullet I think, "Did I visually check the case?" or "Did I really SEE what was inside the case as I did visually check it?"

If that is the case, and if I am sufficiently concerned, I weigh the suspected laoded round and others that I "know" are good. If the difference is negligible, I move on. I have pulled cartridges if my suspicions were not allayed though. A minor pain when you consider the loss of the fine firearm.

As a retired Air Traffic Controller I can positively state that ANY human is capable of looking but not "seeing". There were too many times that myself or other controllers were in appearance, LOOKING at the scope, and supposedly AWARE of what was going on. Then another controller called me (them) or just walked over and pointed...and said, "Are you watching those two? (or more)"

We had system's errors with as many as five people watching the radar scope. Quite often two or three was the norm when it came to a "group" who failed to see. And in the old days the Air Traffic Controllers were trained to be aware of this "capability-to-fail-to-see" and had also been trained in good techniques to over-ride such a failure. And it still happened.

It is good advice, especially to us "older" reloaders (eyesight, dementia, alzheimers, worries about our 401K, etc.) to avoid small charges of fast burning powders in large cases.

I do believe that if the poweder suppliers knew a powder could cause "detonation", it would be off the market. Jus a few years ago Alliant was warning everyone away from Bluedot, or to be cautious about it.

There was a post here recently whereby a reloader did indeed load small charges of a fast burning powder and then he chronographed them with the handgun, and subsequently the powder charge, at different positions. His data indicated,if I remember correctly, significantly lower velocites with the powder in the forward portion of the case. I am typing this from memory. As such I have been tempted to try the same thing. I do not put a lot of faith in the "Detonation Theory" but then I do not totally ignore it either. It may not be proven but I do not see the need to take a chance, there are too many powders available for quality handgun loads.

I load EVERY pistol powder from the fastest to the slowest depending on the weapon and the cartridge; and depending on what I want the load to perform. But I am extremely careful to watch for double-charges, however as I get older and more easily distracted, I find myself thinking that in the large cases I should load a more "voluminous" powder, even if the accuracy suffers.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I reload, but in no way am I as experienced as many of you, so I'll ask a perhaps silly question. If a standard charge, such as you were loading, were faced with a very heavily crimped projectile, couldn't the internal pressure of the cartridge far exceed the published pressures for that load? Carrying it to the extreme, if the cartride case were sealed somehow, what would the resulting discharge look like? In my mind, the pressure generated in the first few microseconds of ignition could produce horrendous pressures.

If you, for example used a LEE factory crimp and really screwed it down, or if you used the normal crimp on an overlength cartridge but didn't collapse the cartridge case could the conditions become explosive?

Brass is brass. Crimp it as hard as you want, as the pressure builds, it is going to let loose of the bullet, swell to seal off in the cylinder and the bullet is going to move, unless it absolutely can't because of another obstruction.

How would the pressure go out the sides of the cylinder if it could go down the barrel? Out the cylinder gap?

I understand what you are asking, but, without a solid obstruction, I just cannot see it happening. The metals involved in the bullet and case are much softer than the surrounding steel and, will more readily expand under pressure, to the point that the steel will allow. THAT happens every time you pull the trigger on a load.

Not saying it couldn't but, I would think, highly unlikely. Just me though, YMMV.

 

[venomballistics]

I reload, but in no way am I as experienced as many of you, so I'll ask a perhaps silly question. If a standard charge, such as you were loading, were faced with a very heavily crimped projectile, couldn't the internal pressure of the cartridge far exceed the published pressures for that load? Carrying it to the extreme, if the cartride case were sealed somehow, what would the resulting discharge look like? In my mind, the pressure generated in the first few microseconds of ignition could produce horrendous pressures.

If you, for example used a LEE factory crimp and really screwed it down, or if you used the normal crimp on an overlength cartridge but didn't collapse the cartridge case could the conditions become explosive?

no.
if so there'd be no such thing as a safe shoshell load as they are all either fold crimped or in some special cases, like slugs loads and some high performance loads, roll crimped.
you, however could be in the ball park of another possibility.
if he shot lots of 44 specials through it so as to form a ring of built up crud, a magnum case would overlap this build up, if its tight enough, the theory goes that the case won't be able to inflate off the bullet causing a nasty pressure spike.
Well .. its a theory anyhow.

 

[smokemeister25]

I know this might sound strange, but when I use a powder that does t put much in the case I use a lee powder scoop... I check the data, check it again, the. Check it again to make sure I'm using the right scope. The. I check it on a scale put all the other scope away and proceed very carefully. I have both fear and distrust for powders that do t cover the primer hole and like powders that fill the case to the poi t where a double doesn'teave room for a bullet. So far it's always proven to be a good technique.

Sorry you lost the gun but glad you did t something worse

 

[dutch686]

Pulled 10 random rds last night. Weighed each bullet and powder charge. Powder weights were 4.8 gr of titegroup, and the bullet heads were 240gr.

 

[Maximumbob54]

At this point is all going to be guesses unless you keep pulling bullets and suddenly see a rather full case.

But...

At this point I have to add one more thing. Titegroup is just becoming taboo or persona non grata to me. I recently started a thread simply because of all the bad mouthing this powder gets and more often than not when there is a kaboom thread... here comes the Titegroup...

So sure, maybe we are blaming the powder and not the reloader but at this point I just don't know about that stuff. Link to thread I mention:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/273233-need-schooling-titegroup-powder.html

 

[mickeyblueyes]

As a new reloader,I find this post to be gospel .glad you ok.my condolences over the Smith.
The reason I am adding to this ,because I do hope you and everyone wears safety glasses. I just read a artical on the web here that there are only 2 glasses that are approved by the US military . After extensive testing these two will stop even shotgun pellets.Revision Sawfly is one brand I remember passed the test. Cheap Chinese safety glasses will not protect you.

 

[varmint243]

Pulled 10 random rds last night. Weighed each bullet and powder charge. Powder weights were 4.8 gr of titegroup, and the bullet heads were 240gr.

If you have the time, I would like to see 100% pulled, interested if there are any empty cases, or overcharged cases.

I am also assuming you would want to pull all of them anyway, unlikely you would want to shoot any more from this batch.

 

[DWalt]

It hasn't happened to me yet. I load thousands of rounds of .38 Special WC per year with 3 grains of Bullseye. But I always charge cases separately and visually check all for double (or no) charges using a flashlight.

 

[GLV]

For light-target and plinking loads

I use a lot of Trail Boss. For 45 ACP Bullseye-4.5 to 5.5 depending on the bullet. For 44M, 6.5 to 6.8 TB under a 170gr lead bullet. For jacketed, 17 to 20 gr 2400, depending on the bullet.

Glad you or any one else were not injured. Wish you the best, and I am sure I will be extra diligent about safety in my reloading.

Thanks for letting us know. Had to be painful.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Try to send it back to Smith & Wesson for warranty replacement!

It must be an older one or you just like Pachmayr's!

 

[yeti]

I visited your thread before, but came back to see some pix.
Wow, that 629 is toast!
Thank you for posting this up, Dutch. It is good for all of us to be reminded to be observant and vigilant.
I am sorry about your 629 and I am very glad that you were not seriously injured.

 

[blujax01]

I'm reading Phil Sharpe's 1937 book on Handloading and there are two more possibilities:

He writes of excessive pressure if the primer hole is reamed out, either accidentally or with purpose, beyond mfr's specs:
He ran an experiment using 20 rounds of .270 loaded with 130 grain projectiles and Hi-Vel #2.
With the normal flash hole (0.080"), the average velocity ran 3067 fps for the series of 20 shots. Pressure was 56,600 pounds max, and 54,600 average.
The flash hole was then reamed to 0.101" and the test was repeated. The average velocity went up to 3105 fps and the pressure? Maximum pressure jumped to 68,800 pounds with an average of 63,600!

The other has to do with what he calls "Mail Order Cartridges" - (remember this was 1937!) Off brand brass accounted for quite a few KABOOM's back then, destroying many guns. Always traced back to foreign manufacture, the brass was made with loose tolerances and was not properly annealed, such that after the first firing the brass was too soft causing it to self-destruct in the chamber.

I haven't gotten to his thoughts on case fill yet. I'll report back when I do...