LEOs & armed guards at every school? Here’s a better way.

[k22fan]

This is not to detract from LEOs and armed guards that are already in place at schools. It’s just that there are so many small schools and the guns are so rarely needed that the cost of having personnel hang around with very little to do isn‘t justified. As an extreme example, there is still at least one public one room school with grades K thru 7 on an island in Washington.

I see guns in schools the same way I see life preservers on the state ferries. Coast Guard regulations require the ferries to have life preservers and require sailors be trained to deploy them. It is obviously absurd to pay extra sailors without other jobs to hang around the life preserves. Why shouldn’t schools be required to have a few guns as basic safety equipment and some school employees be required to have training to carry or at least be able to deploy those guns? Additional employees are not necessary. Educators who are proud of their advanced degrees certainly are intelligent enough to operate a simple gun. Existing employees just need to be forced to provide a safe place for the children they are responsible for.

We just need some portion of “the government” to serve the role of the Coast Guard in my example. It would have to be federal or liberal areas would remain unarmed. They’d have to be forced to comply by withholding all federal funds it they refused.

I’ll leave it for someone else to pick which school job classifications would be required to be armed and or trained. That hardly matters anyway because we all know this isn’t going to happen without conservatives up at the top of the pecking order.

What do think? Is this idea better than the NRA’s?

 

[NFrameFred]

The presence of someone with a gun isn't much of a deterrent if the mid-set of the person carrying it isn't with the program. Forcing someone to qualify as armed security when they don't believe in it morally, politically, and without the backbone/mindset for it will never work.

You can a give rabbit a magnum, but he's still a rabbit. You cannot legislate rabbits into guard dogs.

 

[chud333]

Well said Fred. Do you really want a teacher who is (not really
INTO the program) defending the whole school against an armed
nut case intent on doing harm.
I'd rather have a person whose sole responsibility it is to confront
the situations that may arise. Trained and well versed/practised
with his or her duty weapon. We can find the money to pay the
folks at the airports, we certainly should be able to fund people
to protect our children at schools.

Chuck

 

[k22fan]

The trouble with the air port security example is that states have only a few large commercial air ports but a whole lot of schools.

As far as mind set goes, in the Connecticut incident the principal and one other school employee lunged at the shooter is a desperate attempt to save children. I doubt they had the fighter mind set beforehand. Here in Washington we had the briefly infamous Tacoma Mall shooter stopped by a young store manager who didn’t have the right mind set. He didn’t fire, but the Tacoma Mall shooter panicked after seeing a gun muzzle. It was never a fair fight: the managers snub nose .38 vs. an AK based rifle. The manager is in a wheel chair for life, but no one else was hurt after he confronted the would be mass murderer.

 

[mc5aw]

Why shouldn’t schools be required to have a few guns as basic safety equipment and some school employees be required to have training to carry or at least be able to deploy those guns?

Because the "public" in public education is predominantly left-leaning, and any requirement would need to clear every state's Department of Ed, individual district's school boards, and superintendents.

Educators who are proud of their advanced degrees certainly are intelligent enough to operate a simple gun.

Wrong. During my time in the NYS public education system, I found that educators with advanced degrees were some of the dumbest people I'd ever encountered. Common sense was a sorely lacking commodity in my former district, and I cannot identify a single teacher out of 150+ who would know a gun barrel from a beer barrel.

We just need some portion of “the government” to serve the role of the Coast Guard in my example. It would have to be federal or liberal areas would remain unarmed. They’d have to be forced to comply by withholding all federal funds it they refused.

Public schools are allocated $ by their home states. You'll never leverage a pro-gun policy into the school system by threatening to withhold funding. Do some research about NY's Governor, and check out his policies on public education and gun rights. This is the type of clueless politico who's in charge all over the country.

 

[Onomea]

I like the NRA's plan whereby whether to arm or not would be left up to individual schools, their faculties and the parents. The NRA plan says that armed security is but one part of the equation, albeit an important one. I agree that there is no point in trying to force people to carry firearms who do not want to do so.

Most people do not want to carry concealed, as you can see from statistics that show that only about 5%, depending on the state, of the population chooses to do so. I would guess the proportion among teachers would be even smaller. Would probably increase, though, if parents made clear that they were not against it.

Or, go back to the armed parent or grandparent volunteers we talked of earlier...

I would be fine with having such school protectors take special training, beyond the state CCW license requirements. The media and most liberals have this idea that the police are uniquely qualified to use firearms because of their firearms training. Okay, train up teachers, school administrators, staff, and volunteers beyond the level that the police get. (Which typically is not that much anyway. Plus, personally, I like training.)

 

[bushmaster1313]

I’ll leave it for someone else to pick which school job classifications would be required to be armed and or trained.

Easy, the custodian.

 

[williamlayton]

You boys are way over complicateing the issue and the plan.
Simply stated, let those who choose to want to carry a concealed weapon do so.
You would probably be suprised at the numbere that would.
It is a liberty to do so and those who choose to participate in this liberty should be allowed.
Blessings

 

[williamlayton]

THIS IS A BIG DISAGREEMENT FROM ME. DON"T READ IT IF YOUR FEELINGS ARE ON YOUR SLEEVE.
I am tired of folks who lump all educated people into a pile and demand that they are stupid and left wingers.
I don't claim that all who like guns are Bubba's--nor do I say that all who don't have degrees are stupid and lazy.
Let's get this discussion back on track and stop emotionalizing groups.
You can speak about one that you KNOW without lumping all into the discussion.
Soap Box is clear.
Blessings

 

[Onomea]

PhD here, William.

But I do believe it is true that acadamia is dominated, overwhelmingly, by anti-gun sentiment. Yes, there are exceptions.

 

[Ransom]

According to Ayoob, in Israel they train volunteers from school personnel, parents, and grandparents who then CC. This makes a lot of sense because they want to do it and it is not costly.

 

[williamlayton]

But this is not Israel or Switzerland, it is America.
Blessings

 

[Moonman]

williamlayton,

The world is a changing place, more rapidly now than ever.

Imagine Henry Ford looking out and surveying all the Mosques in Dearborn, Michigan.

 

[sw282]

My wife's sister acts as a "shadow" for this SPECIAL NEEDS kid in grade school. Really no more than a baby sitter for this kid of 10 she is paid $12 per hr...This kid is her ONLY responsibility too.
l think if the school can afford 12 bucks/hr for just ONE kid they could easily spend $20/hr for a guard to protect ALL

 

[NFrameFred]

First, I did not intend to lump all educators into the dumb-as-a-box-o'-rocks leftists category. I simply acknowledge that in many, many locations there will likely not be someone who would want the training or the responsibility since it goes against their nature.

For my part, I would love to see at least mandatory compulsory basic firearms safety and familiarization taught not only to teachers but as a standard part of student curriculum at an early age. You don't even need to handle a physical gun for that.

As most of us know, many fear guns and shooting because they've never been exposed to it except through unrealistic TV and movies junk and taking the mystery out of it many times changes the perspective. Many a non-gun person has been 'converted' by a little kindness, patience, forbearance and a trip to the range with a .22 . . . .

 

[williamlayton]

What I am trying to communicate is that we have in place a system that would provide on the spot protection.
By on the spot, I mean, at the point of conflict without need of getting someone there while we wait.
This is certainly not perfect but i doubt that you will ever devise a plan that is perfect for anything in this life.
Al we can do is all we can do----trying is better than sitting around discussing.
Blessings

 

[Joewisc]

A lot of teachers can't even teach. You expect them to use a gun properly? This is wishful thinking. Israel is the most paranoid place on earth and armed to the teeth. They still can't prevent every attack.

 

[doublesharp]

Joe, do you think paranoid is really the term to describe Israel's system of readiness? I think they are committed to survival but, given their opponents and location, I certainly wouldn't call them paranoid. We can learn much from the Israelis mode of operation. They have many problems but so do we including a generation of mongrel children who have no clue how civilization works. It's going to get worse here before it gets better imho.

I'm for arming and training interested volunteers. They must undergo thorough background check and extensive firearms training. If a teacher/administrator/janitor wants to participate they are certainly welcomed and encouraged. We can afford to do this.

 

[bushmaster1313]

I could be mistaken, but as I read 18 USC Sec. 922(q), the Federal gun free school zone law does NOT apply to persons with a valid carry permit issued by the state where the school is located and the state was required to investigate before issuing the permit.

I think this means that according to at least Federal law, teachers and other staff with the right carry permit could carry a concealed weapon at their schools (provided they also complied with any state and local laws as well)

YMMV so consult with an attorney in your state and before you even think of doing this.

From 18 USC Sec. 922(q),

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

 

[feralmerril]

I spent my life working as a armed guard. Did it longer than I am old if you called OT factor, and I am almost 72.
When I was a kid in the 50s there was a program of voulenteers for a hole in the dew line called the civilian aircraft observation corp. They were unpaid. Our house sat on the highest hill in the area and across the road was our school. Not big. People would come and sit in their car and read a book or whatever. They were given a book of aircraft pictures of types of planes. When ever something bigger than a puddeljumper flew over they would note the elivation and direction, walk over to the enteryway of the school and call it in. No, there wasnt enough voulenteers, but certain people would drive up, sit and escape the wife, read or whatever. This was around 1953. My family was given a book, think I have it stashed in the garage. Mom would sometimes run across the road when she saw a plane and use the phone.
Ground Observation Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guarding our schools could be a mix of paid cops and guards for the larger schools that can afford it, right down to tested and qualified unpaid retired voulenteers in the same manner doing their quiet hours sitting in their pickup in the school yard guarding the kiddies with a handy shotgun and pitchfork. While the best security in the world can be breeched, we play the odds and numbers. Word gets out that there is guards on the grounds, even if its old jake the retired village barber, odds are the school will be passed up by the village idiot that snapped.
The jobs would be thankless, volenteers thought useless and even thought to be a barney fife want be. Give them a uniform and pay them a couple bucks a hour and that might help a little.
The real deal is it would never be known if the guy donateing his time or even if paid, had really prevented any potential incident. But nation wide, somewhere it would be sure it had. Aint it the same with all paid LE and guards?