I have a S&W Model 1917, S/N 80589. There are stamps that look like a crown between each of the cylinders, it has the flaming bomb and the other stamps. The thing that I can't find out about is the stamp on the right side "Not English Made" in a scrowl frame. Being marginally familiar with the history of the Model 1917 and searching various web sites I cannot find anything about this stamping. Any help and value because of it? See picture.
S&W Model 1917 Stamped "Not English Made"
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My understanding is these stampings were put on a military surplus gun prior to it being sold in the commercial market. Probably some obscure law that makes it necessary to stamp a Smith & Wesson "Not English Made".
The actual phrase is NOT ENGLISH MAKE, with a K. My brain is a sieve for these British markings, but I seem to recall this one was used after 1955. One of the experts please correct me if I have that wrong.
I would think this is one of the 1917s refurbished and supplied to the British in WWII. Once they left service there, they had to go through the British decommissioning and proofing process in order to enter the commercial market. 1917s with British stamps turn up from time to time, but they are nowhere near as common as the British Service revolvers, whether in their original chambering or converted to .38 Special.
I would think this is one of the 1917s refurbished and supplied to the British in WWII. Once they left service there, they had to go through the British decommissioning and proofing process in order to enter the commercial market. 1917s with British stamps turn up from time to time, but they are nowhere near as common as the British Service revolvers, whether in their original chambering or converted to .38 Special.
from 1925 to 1955 the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" was stamped on 1911s and 1911A1s so the same rule probably was applied to 1917s. this is from a refrence book on military pistols. lee
You wonder why they felt it necessary to stamp "NOT ENGLISH MADE" when the handgun being handsome indicates its not English made. Pretty obvious.
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Texas Star
US Veteran
By this reckoning, you are saying that H&H rifles or Purdey or Boss shotguns are not handsome?
By this reckoning, you are saying that H&H rifles or Purdey or Boss shotguns are not handsome?
The British pretty much always got long guns right, and single-shot pistols before the cartridge era. It's just their repeating handguns that seem to be esthetically challenged.
Even the semi auto handguns they made were hard on the eyes IMO. I meant to say "handgun" in my post. I too appreciate their long arms.
Change In Value
Thanks Dave. I went back and looked closer with my 5x visor and it does say "Not English Make". I was fortunate to buy a collection and this was one of 2 S&W .45 DA's in the collection and I was wondering if the value was changed up or down as a result of this marking. Thanks again for your help
Thanks Dave. I went back and looked closer with my 5x visor and it does say "Not English Make". I was fortunate to buy a collection and this was one of 2 S&W .45 DA's in the collection and I was wondering if the value was changed up or down as a result of this marking. Thanks again for your help
Delos
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Hmm…. Let me state the obvious basics and then someone into history can correct me.
I read somewhere that England and US made guns for each other in both WWI and WWII. Certainly the Enfield rifles for them and perhaps 30.06 for us.
If my memory serves the Webley .455 revolver was much lower pressure than our .45 auto pistol. Anyway there were lots of conversions after the war and shooting 45 auto half moon clips in European Pistols caused explosions.
I believe the Webley .455 was about 13,200 psi. And the .45 auto is (21,000 psi According to my reloading book) and 19,000 psi in the below article?
I have never heard of 1917 revolvers being made in England or Canada. The Revolvers and cartridges were made and shipped from here to there.
CAUTION RE .455 REVOLVERS ALTERED TO SHOOT .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim in British Military Revolvers and Other Handguns Forum
This is a good history post mentioning the S&W and Colt 1917 revolvers shipped to England and Canada for WWI.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/279981-history-model-1917-s-w-revolver.html
I read somewhere that England and US made guns for each other in both WWI and WWII. Certainly the Enfield rifles for them and perhaps 30.06 for us.
If my memory serves the Webley .455 revolver was much lower pressure than our .45 auto pistol. Anyway there were lots of conversions after the war and shooting 45 auto half moon clips in European Pistols caused explosions.
I believe the Webley .455 was about 13,200 psi. And the .45 auto is (21,000 psi According to my reloading book) and 19,000 psi in the below article?
I have never heard of 1917 revolvers being made in England or Canada. The Revolvers and cartridges were made and shipped from here to there.
CAUTION RE .455 REVOLVERS ALTERED TO SHOOT .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim in British Military Revolvers and Other Handguns Forum
This is a good history post mentioning the S&W and Colt 1917 revolvers shipped to England and Canada for WWI.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/279981-history-model-1917-s-w-revolver.html
I believe DCWilson has it right, the 1917's were likely Lend Lease guns sent to England before the US entered WWII. After Dunkirk the British were so short of arms that Americans had arms drives where you could donate privately owned guns that were collected and then shipped to England. They would take anything at the time, shotguns, sporting rifles even .22's. The markings were added during the 50's when the guns were sold to US importers to be brought back to the States.
In the summer of 1940 our Navy was raided for a number of surplus to needs revolvers. S&W models 1899, 1902 and 1917. When they entered commerce in the U.K. civil proof was required. Either Birmingham or London got the business. (source Pate's book)
With the serial number on that 1917, it was built for WWI. If it is stamped "United States Property" under the barrel, it was made for our troops. It may have been left in the UK after the war and made its way back over here after WWII. The flaming bomb stamp means it was a middle issue revolver made from SN 42000 to April 1918.
I am, for the most part, a confirmed Anglophile. However, I have always taken a dim view of the Brits compulsion to stamp their tacky markings all over the firearms that we sent them when their chestnuts were in the fire.
It's more than a little offensive to me and not what I would have expected from a nation that is known for its proper etiquette.
Quite like your neighbor borrowing your car when his is dead and returning it with his initials scratched on the door.
Bob
It's more than a little offensive to me and not what I would have expected from a nation that is known for its proper etiquette.
Quite like your neighbor borrowing your car when his is dead and returning it with his initials scratched on the door.
Bob
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By early June, 1940, France had fallen, and the Brits had been pushed into the sea at Dunkirk. In that desperate evacuation, anything that would float was sent across the channel, including small subsistence fishing boats. Leaving rifles, helmets, and packs on the beach meant more men in the boat. Men were wading into the sea to get picked up.
They evacuated around 330,000 troops, but much equipment was lost.
The Battle 0f France was lost, and the Battle of Britain was about to begin. The Brits fully expected invasion, and it looked very bleak for them.
Before lend-lease began, Roosevelt ordered 20,000 Model 1917s sent to them. They were regular WW I U.S. Military models pulled from storage and shipped over.
Fortunately, the invasion never came, but the Luftwaffe did.
It truly was 'their finest hour'.
They evacuated around 330,000 troops, but much equipment was lost.
The Battle 0f France was lost, and the Battle of Britain was about to begin. The Brits fully expected invasion, and it looked very bleak for them.
Before lend-lease began, Roosevelt ordered 20,000 Model 1917s sent to them. They were regular WW I U.S. Military models pulled from storage and shipped over.
Fortunately, the invasion never came, but the Luftwaffe did.
It truly was 'their finest hour'.
'Not English Make' was applied by the English Proof House (either London or Birmingham) at the time of proofing of the firearm. It was used/applied to any firearm that was "not of English manufacture".
The Proof House mark was in use between 1925 and 1955.
Nothing to do with export/import.
The firearm could be of sporting use or one destined for Military use.
X-military firearms surplused by the English gov't (Sold from Service) would be proofed before allowing them to be sold and traded on the commercial market. If one of these were not an English mfg'r (P14 Enfield for example), it would receive that marking along with proofing if it was going out onto the civilian market.
The proof marks themselves will each be inside of a circle,,another demand of the English proofs applied to non-English manufactured firearms proofed during that time period.
Wether proof was done at Birmingham (the vast majority were) or the London Proof House can be determined by the small proofs themselves.
The Birmingham marks are easiest to see as they all have a 'B' in them (BNP,,BV,,ect.),,again each mark should be inside of a circle and a crown should be atop each circle mark stamping.
Those done during the hectic days of WW2 will sometimes show some lack of uniformity,,but for the most part they followed their Proof Laws straight away..
The Proof House mark was in use between 1925 and 1955.
Nothing to do with export/import.
The firearm could be of sporting use or one destined for Military use.
X-military firearms surplused by the English gov't (Sold from Service) would be proofed before allowing them to be sold and traded on the commercial market. If one of these were not an English mfg'r (P14 Enfield for example), it would receive that marking along with proofing if it was going out onto the civilian market.
The proof marks themselves will each be inside of a circle,,another demand of the English proofs applied to non-English manufactured firearms proofed during that time period.
Wether proof was done at Birmingham (the vast majority were) or the London Proof House can be determined by the small proofs themselves.
The Birmingham marks are easiest to see as they all have a 'B' in them (BNP,,BV,,ect.),,again each mark should be inside of a circle and a crown should be atop each circle mark stamping.
Those done during the hectic days of WW2 will sometimes show some lack of uniformity,,but for the most part they followed their Proof Laws straight away..
Texas Star
US Veteran
I've read that M-1917 .45's and M-1917 Enfield .30 US rifles sent to the UK then were marked with a band of red paint on the barrels to indicate that they were for non-standard CTGs. The average Englishnan knew very little of small arms. Heck, you can hand a .303 and a .30/06 to most people here and they couldn't name either CTG. without reading the headstamp. Given military headstamps, imagine the added confusion!
I think most of those arms were used by the Home Guard, but one book said that Colt M-1917's saw some use with the Indian Air Force during the war. If so, they may well have also had some S&W's. Don't know if they were issued to aircrew or ground forces. The priority was to get .38-200 or .455 revolvers in the hands of front-line troops or combat pilots. That simplified ammo supply in war zones. Churchill insisted that his newly-formed Commando troops use the Colt .45 auto as standard and they bought many before Lend-Lease began. Some paratroopers also used .45 autos. Later, 9mm Brownings made in Canada became common among Airborne forces. Colt .32 autos were issued to SOE and other special operations and Intelligence personnel, too.
All of these have been sold as surplus, except for the Inglis-made Brownings, I think. Some of those mysteriously turn up in this country, though. It is my understanding that Canada is looking for a new pistol, and that they will destroy those Brownings!
However, they remain in use for now in Afghanistan.
Keep in mind that in WW I, both Colt and S&W sold .455 revolvers VERY similar to the M-1917 to the Commonwealth nations. These could easily be confused with M-1917 .45's.
Also, Britons with suitable licenses after 1920 (nasty gun law passed then) owned personal .45's of various makes.
I got the impression from a post above that someone thinks that P-14 .303 rifles were made in Britain. I believe that they contracted for all to be made in the US for them. The Pattern 13 .276 experimental arm that was its immediate ancestor was, however, made entirely in the UK, in quite limited quantity. The arrival of war in 1914 scrapped plans to make the .276 the new service rifle, and the SMLE acquitted itself very well in the war.
I am truly baffled by how few American gun enthusiasts seem not to know this basic stuff that I learned in my teens. Maybe I just read more about British matters because of the glamor/glamour of the days of Empire and that being my ancestry. ?? I hope this interests those here who are so often puzzled by such matters.
I think most of those arms were used by the Home Guard, but one book said that Colt M-1917's saw some use with the Indian Air Force during the war. If so, they may well have also had some S&W's. Don't know if they were issued to aircrew or ground forces. The priority was to get .38-200 or .455 revolvers in the hands of front-line troops or combat pilots. That simplified ammo supply in war zones. Churchill insisted that his newly-formed Commando troops use the Colt .45 auto as standard and they bought many before Lend-Lease began. Some paratroopers also used .45 autos. Later, 9mm Brownings made in Canada became common among Airborne forces. Colt .32 autos were issued to SOE and other special operations and Intelligence personnel, too.
All of these have been sold as surplus, except for the Inglis-made Brownings, I think. Some of those mysteriously turn up in this country, though. It is my understanding that Canada is looking for a new pistol, and that they will destroy those Brownings!
However, they remain in use for now in Afghanistan.Keep in mind that in WW I, both Colt and S&W sold .455 revolvers VERY similar to the M-1917 to the Commonwealth nations. These could easily be confused with M-1917 .45's.
Also, Britons with suitable licenses after 1920 (nasty gun law passed then) owned personal .45's of various makes.
I got the impression from a post above that someone thinks that P-14 .303 rifles were made in Britain. I believe that they contracted for all to be made in the US for them. The Pattern 13 .276 experimental arm that was its immediate ancestor was, however, made entirely in the UK, in quite limited quantity. The arrival of war in 1914 scrapped plans to make the .276 the new service rifle, and the SMLE acquitted itself very well in the war.
I am truly baffled by how few American gun enthusiasts seem not to know this basic stuff that I learned in my teens. Maybe I just read more about British matters because of the glamor/glamour of the days of Empire and that being my ancestry. ?? I hope this interests those here who are so often puzzled by such matters.
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Texas Star, thanks for your post, yes there appears that there was red paint on this gun barrel at one time as there is small amounts of red paint in the s&w barrel stampings and around the joint between ther barrel and frame. Most of it has been removed but looking under magnification you can see paint remains.
I guess with all of the markings, paint and history it is not worth as much as an unaltered gun. Can you give me a range for it's value?
I guess with all of the markings, paint and history it is not worth as much as an unaltered gun. Can you give me a range for it's value?
Bob,Do you like chowder heads?
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