A Close Call.

[walkin jack]

Delos, I never felt that I could "get away with" shooting a policeman or anyone else. I was gravely concerned for my safety as I stated because of the disparity in our ages our size and our physical condition. He could have easily killed me with one punch. My only interest here was to survive.

I also stated that the the racial issue got out of hand on another site. I asked that it not be referenced in y'alls responses. It turned out not to play a part in the situation but I included it in the post because it may have been a concern to each of us until we saw that it was not an issue.

I did learn my lesson here and have not and will not repeat my mistake.

 

[Delos]

Thanks Jack

Delos, I never felt that I could "get away with" shooting a policeman or anyone else. I was gravely concerned for my safety as I stated because of the disparity in our ages our size and our physical condition. He could have easily killed me with one punch. My only interest here was to survive.

I also stated that the the racial issue got out of hand on another site. I asked that it not be referenced in y'alls responses. It turned out not to play a part in the situation but I included it in the post because it may have been a concern to each of us until we saw that it was not an issue.

I did learn my lesson here and have not and will not repeat my mistake.

Thanks Jack, sorry if I in any way sounded pushy.

 

[walkin jack]

Absolutely no problem Delos. It is a complicated story with a lot of little details that had an impact on the over all outcome. It can be hard to always express everything properly on the internet. I'm happy to explain anything that may have caused confusion or misunderstanding.

 

[jlrhiner]

I'm baaack!

Delos, you seem to give all the credit for reasonable thought to the other guy, and his "neighborhood watch". And we all know how succesful armed neighborhood watches have been. In the ops scenario, he did not cross the fence. While he may have crossed the property line, we do not know this.

I too carry extra magazines. I'm not sure what this has to do with it. I also adhere to the 21' rule. (and so does anyone aggressively approaching me)

As far as shooting a policeman in front of his own property, I'd shoot the Pope if he attacked me. I do not have to let anyone attack me.

While the OP mentioned the race of the individual, I was keeping my responses purely raceless.

 

[MH8675309]

Again some of you are assuming this guy was legit. His actions and silence indicate that things werent what they appeared.

 

[old bear]

I'm just happy that cooler heads Prevailed and no one was hurt. From the O/P's description it does sound as if the homeowner (?) was overly aggressive during the start of their spat. I would like to believe if the homeowner had approached the O/P and simply asked "may I help you?" which translates to what the hell are you doing the O/P would not have a story to tell.

I learned years ago to whenever you can start soft and work my way up to hard as needed. Cause you can't start hard and back down from there.

 

[Kelly Green]

One thing I can tell you about folks like myself who raise livestock or farm in Central Texas is that anyone snooping around raises suspicions. We don't know who you are and if you are shooting with a camera we don't know where those photos will end up. We've had cattle rustled, equipment stolen and property vandalized among other things. I know of one fella who had bails of hay stolen out of the field last fall.

Out here it's always best, and safest, to ask permission first.

 

[Delos]

I'm baaack!

Delos, you seem to give all the credit for reasonable thought to the other guy, and his "neighborhood watch". And we all know how succesful armed neighborhood watches have been. In the ops scenario, he did not cross the fence. While he may have crossed the property line, we do not know this.

I too carry extra magazines. I'm not sure what this has to do with it. I also adhere to the 21' rule. (and so does anyone aggressively approaching me)

As far as shooting a policeman in front of his own property, I'd shoot the Pope if he attacked me. I do not have to let anyone attack me.

While the OP mentioned the race of the individual, I was keeping my responses purely raceless.

Lets do some of it again. A recreational photographer would probably not know if he is in a high crime area. Actually I am the one trying to explain why someone might rush toward him a little bit faster than normal, if he is near an abandoned building. The sheriff or dispatcher always asks if the caller if he got a license number. When any farmer or anyone else has had burglary or vandalism and has frequently rushed out to get a license number, usually the vehicle drives away before he gets close enough to read the plate. Then they try harder, usually calling a neighbor down the road, depending on cattle or property loses. He might have occasionally seen a car come up behind him, slow to his speed, then speed on by. All they wanted was the plate number for the sheriff. If the plate was that of a parolee he will get a visit looking for stolen items. If the farmer checks and anything is missing the vehicle owner will get a visit.

I have been in the business of protecting property or people for a long time.

At various times in my life I have been the person rushing to get a license number, description, or any look at what is being loaded in a vehicle.

You can "forget" the stuff about "within 20 feet from a person they can rush you" with a knife before you can draw. If the person with the gun is that slow they better get something else faster. Trainers just want you to practice.

Maybe twice in a deep dark night I had a small handgun that was already in my hand. I also have done numerous other common tricks not appropriate to mention here.

So let me be the first to say "take evasive action". A farmer rushing toward you in broad daylight will not often attack you. A police or security person will not shoot you in the back.

If you are in your vehicle and someone is breaking your window then shoot or drive.

If the photographer was to brandish a gun in that alleged 20 feet, that he may think he "might" be in danger, I know people who are faster than he can imagine, and he just gave them a reason to shoot. Stepping quickly toward a person is not against the law.

I do not know anyone who pulls a knife from 20 feet away. They wait until they are in arms length. Again "stand your ground laws" sound nice, and are legal. Politely take evasive action and live longer, unless you're a police person. Leave confrontations to the police if you can. They have all those night sticks, stun guns and pepper spray on their belts for a reason.

On your own property - do what you must do, none of my friends or ex-employees ever bothered someone on their own turf.

When called, Police show up at your house in uniform for a reason.

 

[jlrhiner]

Most of what you say, I completely agree with.

However, and their always seems to be a however, using the term "farmer" or "rancher" means nothing unless I know you. I understand that you and your friends have had bad experiences with trepassers. But that then governs all strangers you meet? This is still the United States of America. I can (and will) travel freely on the roads. If my truck passes your house and I stop and take a picture of a tree, you can feel free to come up and ask me what I'm doing. I'll be happy to tell you, and show you on my digital camera. Coming up on me in an aggressive manner would not be good.

Making the assumption that you are the fastest, best trained cowboy on the range could be a fatal mistake.

Civility is always the best policy.

 

[Delos]

Most of what you say, I completely agree with.

However, and their always seems to be a however, using the term "farmer" or "rancher" means nothing unless I know you. I understand that you and your friends have had bad experiences with trepassers. But that then governs all strangers you meet? This is still the United States of America. I can (and will) travel freely on the roads. If my truck passes your house and I stop and take a picture of a tree, you can feel free to come up and ask me what I'm doing. I'll be happy to tell you, and show you on my digital camera. Coming up on me in an aggressive manner would not be good.

Making the assumption that you are the fastest, best trained cowboy on the range could be a fatal mistake.

Civility is always the best policy.

So you are saying - a few sentences up:
"Comming up on me in an aggressive manner would not be good".

And again in his 4th and 5th paragraphs from bottom the OP says:
"In CHL classes we are told that 21' is as close as you should let a potential attacker get. Inside that, they say, you can not pull and fire before your attacker can reach you and cut/stab/assault you. This guy stopped at what I figured was not quite 20'.
Thinking about the way it might have gone if he'd rushed me and I'd shot him, I'd have been covered even if he'd actually been a LEO. The law makes provision for disparity in size and physical condition."
(End of Quote)

So now I ask you. The trainer says not to let anyone get closer than 21 feet. So are you and he saying you can shoot someone who gets closer than 21 feet.

Seriously, Trainers say things without saying the next step. What is the next step if he comes closer than 21 feet.

Read again what he said and what you said. You may end up in prison some day or you may cause someone else to end up in court sounding really bad, and end up in prison. Firearms trainers are not lawyers.

You cannot even point a gun at someone because you think he is bigger and getting too close.

I say take evasive action. So lets continue down that road. If you take evasive action and he speeds up you are getting on firmer ground but still not authorized to shoot.

If he grabs you or strikes you the court will look closer. Remember lawyers will be telling a jury of 12 how the law reads. They would like to hear that he said he was going to kill you and that he had the means to do that. Again not the real world that you and I know.

Do not put yourself in a situation where you were tresspassing and now you are accused of murder.

You have changed what your situation would be where you have yourself only on the road. That was not the original post.

Same thing when it comes to shooting a person because a trainer said you are in danger if someone is within 21 feet.

Lets pick a senario and stick with it. The broad statement trainers use is wrong. Why say 21 feet if you cannot do anything until arms reach? Read again what he said and you decide it he is not understanding his situation. Read again what I put in Bold.

 

[JParanee]

Not to pick but if race was not a factor why mention it ?

I do not think if it turned out to be an unarmed police officer and you shot him for walking up to you that it would be just fine

If your that frightened of people you should not go snooping around THERE property

 

[jlrhiner]

First off, retreating or evading is not an option, at least for me. I don't know about the OP.

You seem to be questioning the 21' rule, which is actually called the Tueller Drill. It has been an accepted method of deciding threat level since the mid 80's. Any aggressor inside 21' can get to you before you can draw your weapon from your holster. It's been taught in law enforcement since at least then. It's kind of like a "go, no go" gauge.

I understand you are looking at this as a property owner putting up with pesky trespassers. I'm looking at it as I'm peacefully going about my business, breaking no laws and threatening no one. All of a sudden, someone appears who I do not know and have never seen before. He is aggressively approaching me. I'm on the roadway and have with me tens of thousands of dollars worth of photographic equipment. I tell him to stop. He continues towards me. He has had his only warning and chose to continue attacking me. He would get shot.

In my state, I have no duty to retreat. I don't have to let them hit me, push me or draw first. Actions have consequences.

The scenario by the OP was that he was at his truck on the road when the confrontation began. He had walked down to the old house, but had not crossed any fences. Am I misunderstanding?

 

[Delos]

Not to pick but if race was not a factor why mention it ?

I do not think if it turned out to be an unarmed police officer and you shot him for walking up to you that it would be just fine

If your that frightened of people you should not go snooping around THERE property

Thank you. I feel so alone here I was getting worried. No one has yet focused on his Stab, cut, assault words. An assault is swinging at someone and missing. If it hits it is battery. Either way it must be really serious to warrant shooting someone. Someone pokes a finger on your chest you cannot shoot them.
He is remembering wrong or his trainer was not very good at making his point.
In the late 1980's when a trainer first mentioned this (30 feet back then) he was only warning people to practice. He was not claiming there was any legal value to knowing that. (He was selling his martial arts class).

 

[jlrhiner]

Thank you. I feel so alone here I was getting worried. No one has yet focused on his Stab, cut, assault words. An assault is swinging at someone and missing. If it hits it is battery. Either way it must be really serious to warrant shooting someone. Someone pokes a finger on your chest you cannot shoot them.
He is remembering wrong or his trainer was not very good at making his point.
In the late 1980's when a trainer first mentioned this (30 feet back then) he was only warning people to practice. He was not claiming there was any legal value to knowing that. (He was selling his martial arts class).

Your not alone. We just have two different views because we have obviously been on each side of this. Conversations like this help in gaining perspective. I've always been very cautious when out photoing, being very careful to not include children or private property without permission. I even carry cards to fill out granting permission. I can clearly see and feel the angst of the OP in this situation.

 

[Delos]

First off, retreating or evading is not an option, at least for me. I don't know about the OP.

You seem to be questioning the 21' rule, which is actually called the Tueller Drill. It has been an accepted method of deciding threat level since the mid 80's. Any aggressor inside 21' can get to you before you can draw your weapon from your holster. It's been taught in law enforcement since at least then. It's kind of like a "go, no go" gauge.

I understand you are looking at this as a property owner putting up with pesky trespassers. I'm looking at it as I'm peacefully going about my business, breaking no laws and threatening no one. All of a sudden, someone appears who I do not know and have never seen before. He is aggressively approaching me. I'm on the roadway and have with me tens of thousands of dollars worth of photographic equipment. I tell him to stop. He continues towards me. He has had his only warning and chose to continue attacking me. He would get shot.

In my state, I have no duty to retreat. I don't have to let them hit me, push me or draw first. Actions have consequences.

The scenario by the OP was that he was at his truck on the road when the confrontation began. He had walked down to the old house, but had not crossed any fences. Am I misunderstanding?

You are changing everything in order to win a discussion. First you mention what police are taught.
Then you presume what the situation would be for you.

You say in your state you have no duty to retreat and I agree. But he went to great length to say how unhealthy he is and used it to justify possibly shooting an approaching person.

Then you focus on him being by his truck when the confrontation began.
He wrote at least a paragraph about that mentioning the star on the property owners shirt and not saying what the property owner said but did say what his reply was. I will go back over it if you really want. (Okay he said he was fixing a tractor and I assumed he was the owner not renter or helper). We can do all this again if you promise to stick to what he said.

I am trying really hard to have people understand their surroundings. He is in his own world thinking of his presumed legal rights, and he has been taught wrong. He is not thinking of the property owners rights or possible past problems. In many areas old buildings are being looted and practically torn down for antique anything.
The metal detector crowd goes through.
The antique bottle and shop parts people go through.
The Antique wood people go through.
Some times they use a crowbar to get in and it must be repaired or the next person thinks it is wide open so must be fair game.

 

[Delos]

Sorry

Your not alone. We just have two different views because we have obviously been on each side of this. Conversations like this help in gaining perspective. I've always been very cautious when out photoing, being very careful to not include children or private property without permission. I even carry cards to fill out granting permission. I can clearly see and feel the angst of the OP in this situation.

Sorry, I just read this post. Yes we can feel the "angst" of the OP but if he is wrong it will not help him to agree.
Read his post a couple of times and he is screaming me me and will lose bad bad in any court. Any jury will listen really close to the property owner. If he is dead the jury will look real close at his widow and children, and listen to all the problems they have had. Again the fence is not necessarily on the property line, more likely just to confine animals.
Police would not have stun guns, batons, and pepper spray if all they had to do was shoot anyone they think is dangerous who is within 21 feet. They have all the less than lethal weapons because they have lost lawsuits or the public has insisted.

 

[photoman]

My first thought was, "How the hell did this guy get so close to me before I noticed him!"

Another good reminder to always stay alert.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

Delos, I never felt that I could "get away with" shooting a policeman or anyone else. I was gravely concerned for my safety as I stated because of the disparity in our ages our size and our physical condition. He could have easily killed me with one punch. My only interest here was to survive.

I also stated that the the racial issue got out of hand on another site. I asked that it not be referenced in y'alls responses. It turned out not to play a part in the situation but I included it in the post because it may have been a concern to each of us until we saw that it was not an issue.

I did learn my lesson here and have not and will not repeat my mistake.

And we are going to leave it at that.....