Plague: Deprecation of Children

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BuckeyeChuck

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I have long thought that our society increasingly deprecates children, at least, the middle and upper-middle class does. Having fewer and fewer children, having them spaced far apart, or considering others crazy for having more than two: these are all signs. I posted this partly in response to the ongoing poll about which is worse, abuse of animals or neglect of children. I stated therein that I draw a moral line betweeen people and animals. Human life has dignity and sanctity; animal life has only dignity. Children are people; animals are property.

I've had many discussions with people around or younger than I who have had one children. When asked if they will have more, they wrinkle their noses and say "We're not sure. One may be enough." I then have some questions for them:

(1) Do you have brothers and sisters? "Yes!" they all exclaim. Usually the women say "I love my siblings!" or "I don't know what I'd do without them." I then point out that their choice to have only one child means their child will not have the richness they so happily proclaim.

(2) Do you have aunts and uncles and cousins? "Yes!" they all exclaim. Then they go on to tell stories about Christmas or Thanksgiving or the summer get-togethers. I ask them if they are aware that their grandchildren will have none of that on their side of the family. Often they say they haven't actually thought of those details.

I then point out that if their only child marries another only child and they choose to have only one child, their grandchild will have no siblings, no aunts and uncles, and no cousins. NONE. They won't have memories of wrestling on the floor with their Uncle Scott, or the overnights stays with their cousins when they played football in the basement until 2 AM and then watched a horror movie until 4:30.

"That's what friends are for." I consider this a concomitant deprecation of the family unit. They go hand-in-glove.

I also ask these people what life would be like if they lost their only child. The answer is that it is unthinkable, of course. I have three sons and I would be devastated if any of them passed before I did, especially as children, but my wife and I have actually discussed how grateful we are that we have more than one child so that if one is taken, we will still have others with whom we can share the struggle and growth and who can carry on the hope of life.

Everybody should know as they read this that when the media disparagingly refers to those who cling to their Bibles and their guns, I proudly put up my hand. My faith colors my view.

I would like to say this deprecation is less prevalent inside the Protestant church, but I'm not sure it is. I attend a large church in Columbus that I would describe as rather evagelical. My two older boys play in the youth basketball league. They are coached by a man and his wife whose son is on the team. (They run a lousy, lousy practice, by the way.) They have two children: a daughter about 10, and the aforementioned son (six or seven).

Team photos were two weeks ago during practice. While standing in line, the male coach struck up a conversation with a mother also standing in line. To my astonishment and disgust it went something like this:

Coach: Yeah, I've got these neighbors a couple doors down that are crazy. They've always taken care of foster kids. They've got three of their own and adopted one of the foster kids. Now they have another foster child. I'm thinking, are you CRAZY?!

Woman: Yeah, that IS crazy!

I admit that I saw red. I said nothing because I wish to live peaceably with my fellow churchgoers, but I wanted to ask him a couple of questions.

What's crazy? Is having several children nuts? If yes, please tell me the number at which the number of children becomes crazy? We're not talking about 15 children, or 10 children, or even 7 or 8 children, but only five. So what number is it? Two? Three? Or four? And how would you know? You only have two. What is the difference between two and three. Please tell me; as a father of three, I must know what it is that makes the additional child so burdensome. Perhaps you will tell me something of which I was not aware by my greater ongoing experience, but I doubt it.

Furthermore, these people not only take care of the children that are theirs, but they have opened their home to provide love and sustenance for a child that NOBODY else wants. THIS is crazy? No sir. This is honorable and laudable in the extreme. THIS is what Christ meant when he said that if you do this unto the least of these, you do it unto Him. THIS is what he meant when he said lay your treasure in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt. In short, THESE are the people who demonstrate the character of the savior we both accept, but YOU think they're crazy. THAT is nuts.

Know what's ironic? If these guys had fostered a stray dog instead of a parentless child, I have no doubt these same people would laud them for their compassion and care.
 
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I don't know what the difference between two and three is, but I do know the difference between one and six.

I was single. I had money. I married a woman with four kids. Now there were six of us. I had no money. Kids are EXPENSIVE.

Back in the 1800s, having a big family made sense. You got free labor to work the family farm. There was a world-wide population of less than a billion.

In the 2000s, you don't need the free labor. Very few folks live on farms, and the ones that do use machinery. World population is approaching seven billion.

And of course, there is the little thing about actually HAVING the kid. You know - carrying it around in your belly for nine months, and then pushing something the size of a watermelon out a hole the size of a grapefruit. I'm guessing, from the "chuck" part of your name, you're a guy. Before you start suggesting someone have five-six-eight kids, talk to the wife. She might not wanna.

Tell you the truth. If ANYTHING I've heard about the pain of childbirth is true, that ain't no way I'd have a kid.
 
It's none of my business if a couple decides to have no children or 6 children. And it is definitely not my business to try to convince someone to have more children.

Where's the limit to how many someone should have? In my opinion they can have as many as they can afford without requiring handouts.
 
I think middle class people limit the size of their families in order to be able to provide a comfortable life for their families. There is a world of difference between having one child and having six and there is as much difference between six and twelve. When you have 8-12 children the older ones raise the younger ones and likely only the youngest is spoiled (if any). It is nearly impossible to raise just one child without that child getting the idea that the world revolves around him/her.

As others have pointed out years ago the society was more agricultural and children were a source of labor. Also it was common for children to nor survive to adulthood. In the times long ago the families couldn't provide farms for each of their children so they were expected to go on their own as soon as they became adults. This had an effect on the wars we fought. Also the youngest was expected to stay single and care for aging parents, especially the youngest girl. Today it sounds fairer to me to have two or three and encourage them all to go to college.
 
It is impossible for me to equate a personal decision about how many children to have or whether to have any at all, with deprecating children in general. The points already expressed about changing societal needs and viewpoints are valid. I wholeheartedly agree with USAF 385 and additionally really have to search for justification in having children without a means of supporting and educating them. They may well be a gift from god but it is the responsibility of the parents to nurture them and not god or the state.
 
I think that a part of us having less children, here in middle class America, has to do with our materialism. We want to give our kids all kinds of superficial material items, and we get the idea that by having less kids, we concentrate more on the one or two that we have and think we are parenting better, which I think is a falsehood. I think in some lower income urban areas, some women have had children because they can get assistance from government, and these children are almost certainly not appreciated and prepared for life properly. How's that for a batchelors opinion. Kind of like a preist telling you about sex.....uhhhh forget that line.
 
Family size is an intensely personal decision made by those personally involved - I can not think of ANY possible reason this decision should be scrutinized/questioned by any resident busybody with no skin in the game, whether or not they have at hand a Biblical quote that they think applies to the situation.
 
My Dad's mother was the youngest of 13. She had six kids. My Mom's mother was from a family with seven kids, she had three of her own and adopted one when her son was killed by a train. My Mom had my brother and I. We had two kids each. My mother and grandmothers were able to stay at home and raise the kids while the men worked. This is the difference. It is harder in todays economy to raise kids unless you get government assistance. Those that do usually have more kids. My wife and I were talking a third child when she got killed. My daughter just had her third. Around here three kids isn't unusual. More than that is unless someone else is paying for them.
 
I have long thought that our society increasingly deprecates children, at least, the middle and upper-middle class does. Having fewer and fewer children, having them spaced far apart, or considering others crazy for having more than two: these are all signs. I posted this partly in response to the ongoing poll about which is worse, abuse of animals or neglect of children. I stated therein that I draw a moral line betweeen people and animals. Human life has dignity and sanctity; animal life has only dignity. Children are people; animals are property.

Not long ago humans were property too. Did that make their life less "sanctity"?

I've had many discussions with people around or younger than I who have had one children. When asked if they will have more, they wrinkle their noses and say "We're not sure. One may be enough." I then have some questions for them:

(1) Do you have brothers and sisters? "Yes!" they all exclaim. Usually the women say "I love my siblings!" or "I don't know what I'd do without them." I then point out that their choice to have only one child means their child will not have the richness they so happily proclaim.


(2) Do you have aunts and uncles and cousins? "Yes!" they all exclaim. Then they go on to tell stories about Christmas or Thanksgiving or the summer get-togethers. I ask them if they are aware that their grandchildren will have none of that on their side of the family. Often they say they haven't actually thought of those details.

I then point out that if their only child marries another only child and they choose to have only one child, their grandchild will have no siblings, no aunts and uncles, and no cousins. NONE. They won't have memories of wrestling on the floor with their Uncle Scott, or the overnights stays with their cousins when they played football in the basement until 2 AM and then watched a horror movie until 4:30.

"That's what friends are for." I consider this a concomitant deprecation of the family unit. They go hand-in-glove.

I also ask these people what life would be like if they lost their only child. The answer is that it is unthinkable, of course. I have three sons and I would be devastated if any of them passed before I did, especially as children, but my wife and I have actually discussed how grateful we are that we have more than one child so that if one is taken, we will still have others with whom we can share the struggle and growth and who can carry on the hope of life.

Everybody should know as they read this that when the media disparagingly refers to those who cling to their Bibles and their guns, I proudly put up my hand. My faith colors my view.

I would like to say this deprecation is less prevalent inside the Protestant church, but I'm not sure it is. I attend a large church in Columbus that I would describe as rather evagelical. My two older boys play in the youth basketball league. They are coached by a man and his wife whose son is on the team. (They run a lousy, lousy practice, by the way.) They have two children: a daughter about 10, and the aforementioned son (six or seven).

Team photos were two weeks ago during practice. While standing in line, the male coach struck up a conversation with a mother also standing in line. To my astonishment and disgust it went something like this:

Coach: Yeah, I've got these neighbors a couple doors down that are crazy. They've always taken care of foster kids. They've got three of their own and adopted one of the foster kids. Now they have another foster child. I'm thinking, are you CRAZY?!

Woman: Yeah, that IS crazy!

I admit that I saw red. I said nothing because I wish to live peaceably with my fellow churchgoers, but I wanted to ask him a couple of questions.

What's crazy? Is having several children nuts? If yes, please tell me the number at which the number of children becomes crazy? We're not talking about 15 children, or 10 children, or even 7 or 8 children, but only five. So what number is it? Two? Three? Or four? And how would you know? You only have two. What is the difference between two and three. Please tell me; as a father of three, I must know what it is that makes the additional child so burdensome. Perhaps you will tell me something of which I was not aware by my greater ongoing experience, but I doubt it.

Furthermore, these people not only take care of the children that are theirs, but they have opened their home to provide love and sustenance for a child that NOBODY else wants. THIS is crazy? No sir. This is honorable and laudable in the extreme. THIS is what Christ meant when he said that if you do this unto the least of these, you do it unto Him. THIS is what he meant when he said lay your treasure in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt. In short, THESE are the people who demonstrate the character of the savior we both accept, but YOU think they're crazy. THAT is nuts.

Know what's ironic? If these guys had fostered a stray dog instead of a parentless child, I have no doubt these same people would laud them for their compassion and care.

I have a younger sister and to be completely honest my life wouldnt be any less different if I were the only child.

As for children....I dont want any. Dont really care who's gonna be an aunt or uncle to whom. Kids are expansive, they never go away, you have to take them everywhere with you, there is no more time for yourself. Right now I can call my boss and tell him I'm leaving work early, go home, pack my bags and just go on any vacation. Cant do that with kids. Cant stay out late with kids, cant take em with you to some places. They cry, scream, dont sit still, get annoying...the more of them there are the more they cost..etc...etc. Funny thing is I actually like kids AS LONG AS I CAN RETURN THEM.

I have friends that have kids. I see how it is and ....HELL NO! You cant invite them anywhere cause the kids have to go too and even if you could they'd leave soon after cause the kids need to go to bed.

On the other hand...dogs cost money too for the first year, then its just food and occasional vet visit. Dogs are ALWAYS happy to see you, they will NEVER not be loyal, they will ALWAYS give their lives to protect the pack (they dont know your an "owner" just an Alpha dog). Humans (in a general sence) change their minds, grow to dislike eachother, stab eachother in theback, kill each other for sport, hurt each other for fun. Lock your wife and your dog in a trunk of a car for a day. Then open it and see who still loves you!

Ive got nothing against people but dogs make better people then humans do
 
I have two daughters.

I wouldn't take a trillion dollars for either one of them.
I wouldn't give you a nickel for another one.
 
Kids are expansive, they never go away, you have to take them everywhere with you, there is no more time for yourself. Right now I can call my boss and tell him I'm leaving work early, go home, pack my bags and just go on any vacation. Cant do that with kids. Cant stay out late with kids, cant take em with you to some places. They cry, scream, dont sit still, get annoying...the more of them there are the more they cost..etc...etc.

My children are 11, 15 and 17.

All those things you see as hinderances are really very petty when you look at the big picture.

I pay a very small price for the unbelievable enrichment my children bring to my life. ;)
 
My children are 11, 15 and 17.

All those things you see as hinderances are really very petty when you look at the big picture.

I pay a very small price for the unbelievable enrichment my children bring to my life. ;)

I believe you, i dont dislike kids but they are 50/50 how they turn out and not much can be done about that. Your kids enriched your life and thats great! I have been friends with those who despite their parents best efforts turned into dealers, druggies, degenerates, criminals, killers...Im 33 and most of my highschool "friends" are dead or in jail. The last one hung himself in prison last May. 99% of these kids had loving, carrying, supportive, upper middle class parents.

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Here's a book review of Jonathan Last's What to Expect When No One's Expecting that was published in today's WSJ; the review might be of interest to those reading this thread:

Book Review: What to Expect When No One's Expecting - WSJ.com

It notes that modern economies tend to reward the behavior of having fewer children. Immigration is the only thing that's keeping the USA from the dangerous population decline experienced by Europe and Japan.
 
I believe you, i dont dislike kids but they are 50/50 how they turn out and not much can be done about that.

I don't buy into that theory. Kids are a product of how you raise them.

When a man holds a door for a lady it's because he was taught to hold a door for a lady. Respecting others is a learned trait.

I just sold a gun and left $1600 sit on the kitchen table all day and all night. All my kids grabbed it, they all played like they would take it and go shopping, and talked of the fun they would have.

This morning there is still 16 hundred dollar bills sitting on the kitchen table.

My son's piggy bank is a tin can on the dining room buffet, filled with coins and cash he collects. It has never been tampered with.

Now my brother's kids? They take things that don't belong to them. The daughter has been kicked out of high school many times. She disappears for days. His 14 year old son is dating a 21 year old girl. They both sass back and are very rude to their parents.

A parent molds a child from the day they are born, whether they know it or not.
 
One thing I would say about population decline is that economies are built upon growth. When the population drops, so does the ecomomy. What a dumb idea.
 
Family size is an intensely personal decision made by those personally involved - I can not think of ANY possible reason this decision should be scrutinized/questioned by any resident busybody with no skin in the game, whether or not they have at hand a Biblical quote that they think applies to the situation.


This is a much nicer way of saying what I was going to post. :mad:

"Resident busybody", I like that. :)
 
I read the thread topic wrong. For a minute I thought I missed something when I filed my tax return yesterday -- thought it was "depreciation" of children. Guess I'll put away the amended 1040.
 
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