Why are handloads not the preffered carry loads?

[rockyrider]

Seems to me, that Handloads are just as suitable as Factory for their intended purpose of self protection. What am i missing?

 

[DR505]

I don't think you are missing anything, but there are some who claim an attorney can make hay with you using a handload in a self-defense situation, claiming it was a "killer" load, or "more lethal," or what have you.

In my opinion, a shooting is either justified or it is not, irrespective of the ammunition in the firearm.

 

[justintyme]

Mostly its a liability issue, worries of over zealous lawyers if it was ever used for Self defense.

 

[shouldazagged]

Whether a shooting is justified in the sight of the law--criminal law--would not be my concern. Civil suits and those "over-zealous" lawyers give me pause. I choose to carry a DAO revolver as my EDC for that reason. Its trigger pull is very smooth but heavier than that of the Glocks carried by our metro police, and there's no way I can be accused of cocking it and negligently lighting off a round from a "hair trigger". It will require a definite decision to fire.

Maybe I've read too much Ayoob, but I prefer to have a weapon that will do the job, first and foremost, but with minimal risk of civil liability. And for the same reason, if I were a reloader I still would carry factory ammo for SD.

I pray I'll never be compelled to use deadly force. I know if I do my life will be changed forever in any case. I simply prefer to minimize the possibilities for complications as much as I can.

 

[Dave T]

I think it is a myth, mostly perpetuated by Ayoob and his lawyer friends. It has always been my contention that if the shooting is justified it won't matter what ammunition you used and if the shooting was not justified...it won't matter what ammunition you used. Other's seem to disagree. YMMV!

Dave

 

[SmokewagonSD]

I think it is a myth, mostly perpetuated by Ayoob and his lawyer friends. It has always been my contention that if the shooting is justified it won't matter what ammunition you used and if the shooting was not justified...it won't matter what ammunition you used. Other's seem to disagree. YMMV!

Dave

I agree with the above, when someone brings up the overzealous prosecutor argument, ask them to cite the case law. Ends the discussion quickly.

 

[Kilibreaux]

I don't think you are missing anything, but there are some who claim an attorney can make hay with you using a handload in a self-defense situation, claiming it was a "killer" load, or "more lethal," or what have you.

In my opinion, a shooting is either justified or it is not, irrespective of the ammunition in the firearm.

Massad Ayoob postulated that handloads would serve to give a prosecutor "ammunition" to claim you were reckelessly engaged in attempting to kill someone. Bear in mind the standard for 2nd degree murder can be met by reckless behavior. At the same time the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that if self-defense is justified it is justified regardless of the weapon used. If all you had is a surplus 81mm mortar and some bad-*** is advancing on you and the jury believes you had reason to believe you were in eminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury, then pumping out a 9 pound HE round into the perp's face would in no way "criminalize" your action.
Personally I doubt handloads versus factory will be the deciding point...juries aren't that stupid (a fact many prosecutors and Nancy Grace despise). The question really comes down to demographics...did you shoot the "wrong" person...as in the Travon Martin case. Everythin points to Zimmering exercising justifed use of lethal force against an attacker yet he is going on trial...does anyone think the origina of his ammo will matter?

 

[kennyb]

i carry my handloads as they are better then store bought....as to legal issues....i do not see it making any differance whatsoever...i have investigated many shootings both "good and bad"no one even questioned if the ammo was factory or not

 

[cbvanb]

I have also questioned why hand loads would be an issue in any justified shooting. When my law enforcement career began in the mid 70's it wasn't uncommon to find an old timer carrying home rolled ammo. I was on the job for about 2 years when my first shooting occurred, and I still remember the look of fear in my sergeant's eyes when he asked me if I was using department ammunition. I think his concern was having to explain it in the report if I hadn't been. In the 80's I moved to a big city department and by then they were actively warning us to only use factory ammunition. It made for uniformity and one less thing the city would have to defend in a civil action, I suspect.
Ayoob has gotten a lot of mileage out of this issue, but I'm not sure he started it. In a criminal investigation I don't believe it would make any difference, but in the inevitable lawsuit which follows, it may be an issue for the lawyers to raise. In the end, if you acted in a reasonable manner, I'm not convinced hand loads alone would sway a jury against you.

 

[SurfGuitar]

I agree 100% that it should not matter what type of ammo is used, as long as the shooter is fully justified in pulling the trigger, all ammunition is designed to stop the advancement of an attacker, granted some calibers do a better job than others, but there is no difference between a round loaded to factory spec's by an individual, or by an ammunition manufacturer.

That being said, I assume most of you posting your opinions on this subject do not live in the lawyer rich confines of New Jersey. We have the most confusing draconian gun laws in the country, and although I can not site any particular case, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if one of these ambulance chasers didn't try to enhance their case with the claim that your hand loaded ammunition was some how more deadly than a factory round. I keep good quality home defense rounds in my guns when they're on home defense duty, and save the hand loads for the range.....

 

[dfariswheel]

The main reason for factory over handloads is reliability.

No one ever wants to admit that they made a mistake in a handload. And people are often shocked to find a problem when they were being so careful.
Premium American ammo is more reliable than almost anyone's handloads because the manufacturing process takes almost all the human element out of it.
Few people can be as consistent as a machine that makes billions of rounds.

Yes, we can tell all sorts of stories about factory ammo failing, but these are anomalies. It's not at all unusual to hear about reloaded ammo failures.

In the case of modern police, there's no way for a department to monitor or test a police officers reloads, so they have no way of knowing how reliable it is, or isn't.
Then too, cops (and citizens) can never let well enough alone. They just HAVE to push the envelope with "trick" bullets or way over pressure loads that often aren't safe or reliable.
A department can tell how reliable factory ammo is from data supplied by the ammo manufacturers.

Bottom line is, for an individual it's personal preference with little chance of some lawyer claiming you made up some especially vicious ammunition.
A good shoot is a good shoot no matter the ammo, and a bad shoot is bad no matter the ammo.

In my case, I've been a shooter both for hobby, defense, and as a gunsmith since I was 14.
In all those years, I have personally had exactly TWO factory center fire rounds fail.
One was a CCI Blazer aluminum cased round and one was a Remington .357 Magnum factory round.
Over the years I've had a number of failures to fire with careful handloads, but never an unsafe one.

No one wants to admit it, but statistically your chances of hearing a "click" instead of a "BOOM" are much higher with handloaded ammo.

 

[andyo5]

You are missing the overwhelming influence of lawyers on every aspect of our lives. Some ambulance chasing lawyer, representing the plaintiff or his relatives, will claim that your handload use shows ill intent to cause maximum harm. You will have to prove otherwise, and it'll cost ya!

 

[Florida J Frame]

Massad Ayoob postulated that handloads would serve to give a prosecutor "ammunition" to claim you were reckelessly engaged in attempting to kill someone. Bear in mind the standard for 2nd degree murder can be met by reckless behavior. At the same time the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that if self-defense is justified it is justified regardless of the weapon used. If all you had is a surplus 81mm mortar and some bad-*** is advancing on you and the jury believes you had reason to believe you were in eminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury, then pumping out a 9 pound HE round into the perp's face would in no way "criminalize" your action.
Personally I doubt handloads versus factory will be the deciding point...juries aren't that stupid (a fact many prosecutors and Nancy Grace despise). The question really comes down to demographics...did you shoot the "wrong" person...as in the Travon Martin case. Everythin points to Zimmering exercising justifed use of lethal force against an attacker yet he is going on trial...does anyone think the origina of his ammo will matter?

I'm not going to go into the factory vs hand-load arena. I carry factory only for several reasons and it works for me. I would be very interested in the case law on the Supreme Court case you quoted on self-defense justification. Do you have the name or case number that could be researched? Thanks

 

[Nframecollector]

All I shoot are my own reloads. Including in my concealed carry weapons.

 

[walkin' trails]

Just a guess as to how it may have began, but I remember hearing stories about cops who carried souped-up hand loads back in the 60s-70s to offset the lackluster performance of the .38 Special 158 grain round nose lead. Completely against department regulations, but the theory was that the bullet would deform or fragment and who could tell. Today, forensic techniques are more thorough. I find that modern, factory loaded ammo is reliable and good rounds perform as well as anything out there at the moment. It might be possible to duplicate the factory performance, but it may take a lot of effort, especially considering that while you might be able to buy the latest expanding bullets, the factory uses powder mixes that are different, I'm told, from what is available to reloaders. Carry factory loads for self defense, and spend time at the reloading bench duplicating the accuracy for training purposes.

 

[shouldazagged]

I think it is a myth, mostly perpetuated by Ayoob and his lawyer friends. It has always been my contention that if the shooting is justified it won't matter what ammunition you used and if the shooting was not justified...it won't matter what ammunition you used. Other's seem to disagree. YMMV!

Dave

If that is the case, why has Ayoob so often been called as an expert witness for the defense in shooting cases? My impression reading his case histories is that he has gotten a lot of people, including LEO's, out of deep guacamole in that capacity.

The fact is, and I hate this, that just about the number one indoor sport in this country is suing people. If I'm attacked by some little gangbanger thug with a stolen gun and am forced to shoot him in self-defense, you can bet the ranch I will be sued and the kid's family will portray him as a good boy unfairly and cruelly perforated by a gun-crazy, senile creep using <gasp!> hollow-point bullets designed to slaughter the innocent lad. And if I've loaded them myself, or took the shot in single action mode, I'm hosed. I have nothing I could be sued for, but the suit could be a reputation-ruining nightmare even if I was cleared of criminal wrongdoing.

If you want to risk it, go for it. I don't.

 

[finesse_r]

It All Depends on Your Location

Seems to me, that Handloads are just as suitable as Factory for their intended purpose of self protection. What am i missing?

It all depends on which state or sometimes what city you live in. If you are in NYC, Washington D. C., Chicago, California or some other city or state that is loaded with liberals, new minority immigrants, and other gun haters, then I would recommend that you only carry factory loads in a gun that has not been modified.

However if you live in a state or city that is still primarily populated with sane, rational, and relatively intelligent citizens, then it will not matter what kind of ammo you carry. Only the situation, the facts, and relevant evidence will be important in any investigation, hearing, or trial.

Universal or absolute right or wrong has little to do with it. Where you live and who lives in the same area will determine what is believed to be right or wrong in that specific court and what is determined to be law.

Any law, even the US Constitution, is only as good as the people that interpret it. As this nation changes it core population, our culture and values will change in the direction of those of the new immigrants. They bring their culture and values with them. There will be different people interpreting the laws of this land and they will interpret them in ways that suit their values, their culture, and their interests, not those of the people that created this nation.

They will call it progress. Many would call it the beginning of the end.

So know your local laws, and know the local attitudes towards guns and the right to defend one's self and one's property. What would not even be cause for you to be arrested or detained in Texas or Arizona, may well get you thrown in prison in NYC or Washington D. C., Detroit, Chicago, or California.

 

[ruger-p94]

All I shoot are my own reloads. Including in my concealed carry weapons.

Same here. The gun beside my bed is the gun I take to the range every week and it just happens to be loaded with 158 grain LSWC's. During a break in I would be compelled to grab the closest firearm to protect myself and family...nothing wrong with that. Just about everyone's reloads fall within the specs of store boughts.

 

[STCM(SW)]

It all depends on which state or sometimes what city you live in. If you are in NYC, Washington D. C., Chicago, California or some other city or state that is loaded with liberals, new minority immigrants, and other gun haters, then I would recommend that you only carry factory loads in a gun that has not been modified.

However if you live in a state or city that is still primarily populated with sane, rational, and relatively intelligent citizens, then it will not matter what kind of ammo you carry. Only the situation, the facts, and relevant evidence will be important in any investigation, hearing, or trial.

Universal or absolute right or wrong has little to do with it. Where you live and who lives in the same area will determine what is believed to be right or wrong in that specific court and what is determined to be law.

Any law, even the US Constitution, is only as good as the people that interpret it. As this nation changes it core population, our culture and values will change in the direction of those of the new immigrants. They bring their culture and values with them. There will be different people interpreting the laws of this land and they will interpret them in ways that suit their values, their culture, and their interests, not those of the people that created this nation.

They will call it progress. Many would call it the beginning of the end.

So know your local laws, and know the local attitudes towards guns and the right to defend one's self and one's property. What would not even be cause for you to be arrested or detained in Texas or Arizona, may well get you thrown in prison in NYC or Washington D. C., Detroit, Chicago, or California.

That statment is correct. It's where you live.
About 8 years ago there was some punks who ran a guy into a parking lot of a hamberger joint, 19 year old jumps out of the car and punches the guy breaking his jaw, guy pulled out his gun & shot him dead before he could be hit again. Punk was drunk & high on meth. His mother tried to get his name & had a lawer ready to sue but the police would not give her his name as he was the victim. 3 months later she was in jail for some crime.

 

[rwsmith]

You can be sued

Even if you are not convicted of a crime, you may have to defend yourself legally which can be a fate worse than death.

I'm trying to find the case, but a man was walking a trail and ended up shooting someone in self defense, but the lawyer argued that he had 'planned' to kill the other guy because of the caliber/ammo he used. I'm looking for the case, if somebody knows something please help me out. I don't think there would be any question about somebody defending their home, but carrying out in public is a different matter and you may be called on 'prove that you aren't guilty.'

I know I didn't make this up.


I found it!

The Harold Fish case in AZ. in 2004

Fish (a retired schoolteacher) had an ambition to walk across Arizona. On a trail he killed a man in self defense.

The man had a history of violence. This was not admissible in court.

Fish had a history of gun ownership. This WAS admissible in court

The sticking point was that he used 10mm jhp ammunition that was deemed too dangerous to use for self defense.

Fish spent two years in jail. He won an appeal and was released.

The legal bills cost him $700,000.