And in those days, the .45 was King...

[PALADIN85020]

Way back when, in the 19th Century, the U.S. Army determined that a handgun in .45 caliber would be superior to any other caliber that existed. Accordingly, in the 20th Century, starting in 1909, .45 caliber U.S. military handguns ruled. Sure, other calibers were issued in the last century, but they were acknowledged pipsqueaks alongside the standard .45s.

Somehow that all fell apart in the 21st Century, and 9mm became the caliber of choice - and in full metal jacket form. Great for the Hague accords and NATO interchangeability, but poor as a manstopper unless a bunch of rounds are fired.

Today, the 1911 pistol lives on in the hands of special Marine units and the .45 caliber continues to march with our Special Forces. These folks know the difference, and choose wisely!

The laws of physics haven't changed - why have we?

John

 

[kennyb]

i must agree !

 

[Arik]

Just as soon as i get my very own "special forces" check book and gunsmith. I do occasionally carry a 45 just not 1911.....yet.

Are we comparing 1950s ballistic again?

I assume no one here carries plane jane 9mm fmj?!?!?!?!

Since the laws of physics havnt changed why then the 45? Why not the 10mm, 50GI, 50AE....The laws of physics have not changed but bullet designs and powders have. Otherwise we'd (and our special forces) still be using 45-70 rifles instead of 308, 556, 30-06

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[gm272gs]

And here I thought .45 was still King.

 

[slfree]

Europe has always depended on smaller (and less effective) calibers. We adopted the 9mm in the US Military knowing it was not "the best." What it is, is a way to unify NATO and UN pistol calibers so we can lower cost and share ammo.

 

[walkin jack]

Call me old fashioned but to my way of thinking the .45 caliber cartridge is STILL and will ALWAYS be king...in ACP, Long Colt, in any bullet design or weight. I know there is a lot of changes in bullet designs with all the new type hollow points but, and I don't want to put too fine a point on it but, as a Vietnam vet I had occasion to witness the performance and effectiveness of the military FMJ .45 ACP ammo we had access to. It was more than adequate let me assure you.

I admit I load with hollow points for my PD ammo now a days but I would be perfectly confident in plain old hard ball if that is all I had. I sometimes carry in .45 auto, .40 S&W, .44 SPL, .357mag. I use either Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Silvertips or Hornady Critical Defense for all my PD ammo.

As far as 9mm goes I know that it can be deadly. Lots of folks get killed with it every year. But to me it's a marginal round. I guess it's a confidence thing. I do have a Glock 17, full size 9mm but it is my plinker. It is a fine gun for sure. Very accurate and very dependable. nearly 9K rounds through it and not one problem but I just feel better with a little more power when my own bee-hind might be on the line.

You hear a lot about the 10mm. I admit that I am intrigued by it. Friend of mine had an old Desert Eagle in 10mm and I fired it once a long time ago. From what I read it is a very effective caliber. But I just don't see the need for both the 10mm and the .45.

Bottom line for me on all this is I'm gonna continue to "dance with the one that brung me". My choice is based upon solid experience and not what I read on the internet or heard someone say. The .45 is King...Long Live The King!

 

[Mule Packer]

I've pretty much carried a .45 Colt in either single-action or double-action for over 30 years now. In my opinion, it's pretty hard to beat that caliber as a man-stopper.

Some claim that hollow points don't have quality expansion at the .45's average velocities. I figure it doesn't matter. Think about it...whether it expands or not, it still makes a hole that's almost a half-inch in diameter! If I go with a semi-auto, I have my model 1911.

I don't own a 9mm and don't plan on owning one either. Like they say, it's silly to have to shoot someone more than once!

 

[keith44spl]

.

I don't own a 9mm and don't plan on owning one either. Like they say, it's silly to have to shoot someone more than once!

.
Chip,

I's pinn'd down in a sleazy motel in Brinkley, Arkansas one time,
with jest one of those lit'l hide out 9mm pistol.

It was a long night, jest a watchin' them dopers making a living......

I'm a packing a .45 from now on....If I have to tote it in a grass sack.

Su Amigo,
Dave

.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Is this another 9 mm bashing thread? Not at all, it is about the praises of the 45. I love guns that are 45; 45-70, 45-90 and 45 Colt lever guns, 45 acp Marlin camp carbine (Camp 45). Even a 110+ year old 450 Nitro double (450-3 1/4" N.E.) When it comes to guns that fit in your hand, I still have 6 in the 1911 family (plus a 38 Super), 3 Sigs in the 220 family, 2 S&W 45 acp revolvers and 8 various 45 Colt single actions. I even liked 45 rpm vinyl records, but that is another story. 45 caliber bullets are a lot like "Love Letters" sent by US Mail. It takes a while to get there, but when it arrives, there can be little misunderstanding about what you mean! A number of years ago while shooting a Cowboy action shoot at "Steel bowling pins", if a 38 or other small bullet didn't hit the top of the pin it wouldn't fall over. But with 185 grain or heavier slugs I saw many very low or edge hits take a pin down with authority! I even started making shot cartridges in 45 Colt, that hold a half ounce of shot, Mr Copperhead didn't live to express his displeasure! From my cap and ball Walkers to my latest Sigs, I would like to say LONG LIVE 45's. Ivan

 

[joeintexas]

I have a 9mm and I probably shoot it more than any firearm I own, its just more economical and just plain fun. I would say I have more trust in my 1911 45acp if push came to shove. I suppose each has its place.

 

[MaximumLawman]

I've seen a lot of people shot and the actual hole you get with a .45 ball round is a lot smaller than 45/100ths of an inch, even in paper. I'm no ballistics expert but wouldn't a smaller, faster round, like a .357 hollow point do a lot more damage when it opens up and tears stuff up?

 

[snubbyfan]

I've got an old cheap pot metal 1911A1 replica that I use as a mold for making holsters. It's the same size and weight as the real thing so when I think up a design, I can see how if rides on my belt. The last holster I made for it works so well I want to get a real 1911 to go with it.

 

[PALADIN85020]

I've seen a lot of people shot and the actual hole you get with a .45 ball round is a lot smaller than 45/100ths of an inch, even in paper. I'm no ballistics expert but wouldn't a smaller, faster round, like a .357 hollow point do a lot more damage when it opens up and tears stuff up?

Ball ammo already has plenty of frontal area, but if you want to see something really impressive, check out a round of Federal 230-grain Hydra-Shok after it's gone through ballistic gelatin, or recover one from a formerly living example. The .357 will certainly get the job done, but at the expense of a lot of noise, flash and recoil. The .45 ACP guns are basically "bloop tubes" with lower velocity, less noise, less flash and less recoil - and with good hollow points, they make really big (and effective) holes. I've been shooting both for over 45 years, so I speak from experience. You wouldn't want to be in front of either a .357 or a .45 hollowpoint, but the .45 is much easier on the dishing-out end.

John

 

[Texas Star]

I've seen a lot of people shot and the actual hole you get with a .45 ball round is a lot smaller than 45/100ths of an inch, even in paper. I'm no ballistics expert but wouldn't a smaller, faster round, like a .357 hollow point do a lot more damage when it opens up and tears stuff up?

I was going to make the point that you just did about hardball ammo not making as wide a hole as some think.

But as for effectiveness, Marshall & Sanow show the best .45ACP JHP ammo as being about on par with 125 grain .357 JHP, which is the absolute best handgun stopper. That's about 96% one shot stops with solid hits.

The old 158 grain lead RN .38 Special is about 50% effective.

It is the Hague Accords that prevent using HP ammo in formal warfare, not the Hague Convention. Nor yet, the Geneva Convention.


I talked with one Dallas officer who shot a running man four times with 240 grain .44 Magnum ammo, all hits in the back and out the chest. The fugitive ran for several blocks before dropping. The officer changed to a .357 M-19, which he felt was as good as anything. I agree, and I've studied handgun stopping power for over 40 years. I was reading Elmer Keith and others on the matter by age 12.

When I routinely went in harm's way at work, I wore a S&W M-66 wih four-inch barrel or a Ruger .357. Usually, that M-66. Before I got it, I wore a M-64 with lead HP ammo, and felt pretty confident that if I shot someone in the right place, he'd drop.

But when I had a choice on military duty, I often wore a Colt .45 auto. One major reason was that the ammo we had to carry was pretty anemic in .38. Our unit in Denver bought some .38 jacketed Hi-Velocity ammo, but I still preferred the .45 and its quicker reload with a spare magazine. Not that it meant much to men who were usually issued just five rounds!

All of this said, I've owned six Colt .45 autos and like the gun a lot. But honestly, the Beretta M-9 is safer for most troops to operate. And the slide can be cycled by some who don't have the strength to cycle a Colt, let alone some SIG's. (The Walther locking block used by Beretta is easier to work than the tilting barrel on Browning-Petter designs.)

 

[PALADIN85020]

It is the Hague Accords that prevent using HP ammo in formal warfare, not the Hague Convention. Nor yet, the Geneva Convention.

Oops (smacking brow)! I knew that!

John

 

[Texas Star]

Oops (smacking brow)! I knew that!

John

John-

No worries. I knew that you'd probably just had a lapse, so didn't mention you by name.

But I wanted everyone to know what applies.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I'm not too worried about a bad guy being a physics major. And seeing as how John's idea of street survival is a .38 special and .22, I'm guessing he's not overly concerned with it either.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/311950-my-urban-survival-kit-whats-yours.html

 

[mjr]

ChattanoogaPhil, that was actually kind of mean!

 

[PALADIN85020]

I'm not too worried about a bad guy being a physics major. And seeing as how John's idea of street survival is a .38 special and .22, I'm guessing he's not overly concerned with it either.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/311950-my-urban-survival-kit-whats-yours.html

As I said before, all firearms are compromises. For a quick trip to the stop 'n rob or where I don't want all that weight, a 642 or a 442 with a .22 backup will give me all the peace of mind I will probably need. If I'm on the "wrong side of the tracks" after dark (which is rarely), a .45 gives me the the most comfort, if not making me the most comfortable!

John

 

[brucev]

Once upon a time I was newly married, newly enrolled in seminary and newly employed doing unarmed night security in a shipyard on the intercontinental waterway in New Orleans, La. One night some folks decided to have fun shooting at me. The next week I found and bought a Colt Commander in .45 ACP. I've been shooting various 1911 type .45's for now about 33 years. I currently own two 1911 and a S&W 625-2. They are delightful. The nightstand pistol is a plain Jane Springfield GI 1911-A1 loaded with 230 gr. FMJ's. I very much like the .45 ACP.

However, when it comes to calming down possible animate threats, the .357 magnum using 125 gr. JHP's is just about the best possible choice anyone can make. It is loud. It may flash some. In a light weight revolver, it's a handful. But, I've shot it about as much as I've shot my .45's. And the truth is, either is very effective.

Neither of these rounds is the sort of things that an inexperienced novice is going to pick up and easily shoot well. Both will require significant training and practice. However I will say this. When I was much less experienced, I found it was not so very hard to learn to shoot well starting with .38 Specials and then moving to the .357 Magnum. I was firing a 6" 28-2. When I bought the Colt Commander, I'd never owned or fired a semi-automatic pistol. I did certainly find it to be a challenge to shoot well using normal 230 gr. ball. That of course is just my own experience. Others will probably have different experiences with these rounds.