The Young LT's Triple Lock .455

[RKmesa]

Lee:

Great gun, photos and narrative! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Doug M.]

It is amazing to me that the revolver fared so well when it was stored from sometime after purchase, until it went to the Lt., and then since then. That's right about 100 years.

 

[Muley Gil]

Granted.

Sherman, Grant-ed???

That's kinda like using the name "Sheridan" in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. If you're not familar with his record, look up "The Burning".

 

[RussellD]

Incredible find, great story, amazing piece of history. Thanks for your research and sharing the photos.

 

[bettis1]

Nice, Lee! Will it be in KC on Wednesday?

Looks like the makings of a great SWCA Journal article.

Bob

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

To make sure I have this straight -

There is a total of 666 plus 5000+ plus 691 triplelocks in 455 caliber.
That first 666 are in the 44 series. The next 5000+ are in the 455 serial
number series. The final 691 are back in the 44 series.

The gun you have, because its a triplelock, is one of the last 691 made in the 44 series.

Is all this correct so far ?

If so, then there must be another gun in the 455 series with this same serial number,
but is a second model .

Would that be right ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[TACC1]

Thanks for the chance to see that piece
of history. You are a fine custodian.
TACC1

 

[Hondo44]

Hi Mike,

I don't propose to answer for Lee. But I have similar confusion and have tried to work this out from various sources, mainly Neal and Jinks and discussions from this forum. This is what I come up with and so maybe Lee can critique this at the same time:


The 3 Versions of .455 Mk II chambered Hand Ejectors are:

1. .44 HE 1st Model TL, .455 Mk II chambering (808 factory reconfigured unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models" or from parts thereof, original chamberings unknown [666 for the British, the rest for the US commercial market]). These 808 .455 #s range from 1104 to 10417 within the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.

2. .455 Mk II HE 1st Model, TL. New .455 serial # range 1 to between #5000 and #6000 guns with c. 68* of the 808 S/#s above duplicated with the .44 1st Models .455s. Made 1914-15.

3. .455 Mk II HE 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model serial range beginning between #5000 and #6000 to #74755. Made 1915-17.

At the end of the .455 contract 691 additional .44 1st Model .455 TLs were again assembled from parts and again in the .44 1st Model serial # range. Thus creating duplicate numbers of .44 1st Model .455s and .455 2nd Models starting c. #5000 to #6000 and below # 15375 (the last # used for the .44 1st Model serial range). The 691 could also have duplicate numbers to any of the .455 Mk II HE 1st Model, TLs #1 to c. #5000 to #6000.

 

[mikepriwer]

JIm
This is worse than some of the Colt serial numbering !

I was just using Lee's numbers, and I don't really worry about whether they are disputed.
I'm really wondering if he agrees that there ought to be a 2nd model 455 with the
same serial number as his gun. That would be a rare pair !

Regards, Mike

 

[chud333]

Thanks for the lesson and Congrats on finding this true time
capsule. This is why i have become a regular reader here and
am a proud member.
I learn so much about these fine guns from my (elders)
on this fine S&W Forum.

Chuck

 

[Hondo44]

JIm
This is worse than some of the Colt serial numbering !

I was just using Lee's numbers, and I don't really worry about whether they are disputed.
I'm really wondering if he agrees that there ought to be a 2nd model 455 with the
same serial number as his gun. That would be a rare pair !

Regards, Mike

Ok, I understand your question better now.

If I understand Lee's explanation there were (812 + 691) a total of 1503 .455 Triple locks built in the .44 1st Model serial number series and I have to amend my facts above in my post #28. Lee has always learned more since the books were printed.

His is # 12609. The 1st 812 only went up to #10417. So AS YOU SAID his is obviously one of the 691.

As he said, the .455 2nd Models began somewhere between #5000 and # 6000 in the .455 serial number series (actually 5461 from the book). Therefore, assuming all serial #s in the .455 serial # series were used, there could be up to exactly 691 duplicate numbered and chances of owning .44 1st Model .455 TLs and .455 2nd Models (non-TLs).

We do know there are 5461 .455 1st Model TLs and we know the #s of the 666 .44 1st Model TLs in 455, there 63 duplicated numbers.

PS Yes much worse than Colt's serial numbers!! My head hurts...

 

[Hondo44]

In the SUMMER of 1914, the Brits had asked S&W if they could build .455 revolvers. S&W built a .455 TL and sent it to them.

Lee,
Does this then negate the shipping date for the 1st 33 .455 TLs of April 8th, 1912 or is that a typo in Neal and Jinks?

Also, if one has a gun with one of the 63 duplicated #s in the first 666 .44 1st Model 455s, is there any way to know if they have a .44 1st Model .455 or .455 1st Model? Both guns are .455 TLs!

Conceivably Roy Jinks can give you two different shipping dates for each of those 63 duplicated serial numbers. So the shipping dates are not helpful. That would be an interesting letter.

 

[RKmesa]

1. .44 HE 1st Model TL, .455 Mk II chambering (808 factory reconfigured unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models" or from parts thereof, original chamberings unknown [666 for the British, the rest for the US commercial market]). These 808 .455 #s range from 1104 to 10417 within the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.

So...Jim is it fair to say that my 455 TL, SN 3075 shipped in the 1st 808 and shipped sometime in 1914-1916? (I need to pull out my N&J and re-read the sections on the TL)

Thanks,

 

[Hondo44]

Richard,
It's not one of the 666 that went to England, therefore if it's English marked it's not a .44 1st Model .455. Chances are it's a .455 1st Model. Therefore it would have to have been shipped between 1914-15.

However, it's conceivable that it COULD EVEN BE .44 1st Model .455 but one of the 691 later batch (though we do know the numbers reported so far are in the 12000-14000 range) with a duplicated number from the .455 1st Models. The 691 weren't all shipped until Oct. 1916 per the History of S&W. There's no way to tell and it just makes my head spin.

I would surely letter it but as I asked Lee in post #32, I can't figure out how Roy would know!

 

[gunfish]

Lordy. Thank you so very much for the pictures. It ain't time travel, that gun has gravity.

 

[model3sw]

Exception find !! Congrats !

 

[Muley Gil]

I've had a couple of long, hard days. This is NOT what I needed to read this evening.

 

[JustinL]

If you are interested to learn more about Lt Irvine please send me a PM. I know a researcher in Canada who can request his service records. If you have proof of death > 20 years ago (or it is already contained in his file) you will have full access. If there is no proof of death (or it has been less than 20 years) you will get a redacted version which is still informative.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Great work in research, writing and photography, Lee. And the gun is just a stupendous find. Many thanks for sharing.

John

 

[handejector]

Lee

To make sure I have this straight -

There is a total of 666 plus 5000+ plus 691 triplelocks in 455 caliber.
That first 666 are in the 44 series. The next 5000+ are in the 455 serial
number series. The final 691 are back in the 44 series.

The gun you have, because its a triplelock, is one of the last 691 made in the 44 series.

Is all this correct so far ?

If so, then there must be another gun in the 455 series with this same serial number,
but is a second model .

Would that be right ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, that should all be correct.
I would love to see a pair of 455's with the same number.