+P 38 Special Nonsense Regarding Model 10

[mkk41]

I've read on another gun forum where so-called 'experts' state that you should never even shoot .38+p in K-frames chambered for .357 magnum like Mod. 13 , 19 , 65 , 66!

BTW , higher pressure does not always equal higher velocity , and vice-versa.

 

[Art Doc]

Not scientific but the rule of thumb I always heard was that about 1,000 FPS would open a good JHP. Few factory 38 Special loads reach that speed save some specialty makers. My load clocks 1,100 FPS from a 2" revolver.

 

[DAinTX]

DAinTX- You are still assuming +P is a hot load. It is not. My whole point is that +P is a very weak and mild load. I would never trust my life to such a weak load for SD use.

Heck no, I was just trying to make fans of the .38 Special feel better about their choice. Actually, my .454 Ruger Alaskan is the absolute minimum handgun caliber I would ever consider for SD/HD . The .500 S&W 4" is my preferred carry piece, although I admit that the .460 has it's attraction. I consider the .357 mags and .44 mags to be far too anemic to trust my life to.

(All jk, of course. And yes, for some impossible-to-justify reason, I actually do own all the above , including .357s and 44s.)

 

[AKAOV1MAN]

PLEASE sticky this +P stuff. Just for the record my wife just retired as a Special Victims Detective in a very big city PD. She also was on the SWAT team. That meant that she qualified every month on a 40 round course. For 26 years she used her M10 pencil barrel (later changed to a M66) and M36. The 36 was actually a pre model number Chiefs Special which was on its 3rd police career, I just call it a 36 on account of because. She qualified with both revolvers, inspite of many younger types trying to pursuade her to go with a bottom feeder. The result, she out shot most of them, including reloading time, including the running course. The upshot, she fired 40 rounds a month for 26 years out of both revolvers using the .38 Special 158 gr SWCHP +P load. She just qualified for the LEOSA carry with the snubby using the same ammo. She fired over 12,000 rounds just in quals with the Chiefs Special, ALL +P loads. Have no idea if her father or grandfather shot the gun that much, but it is well broken in, shows a lot of surface wear, has the best action I have ever felt on a J frame, and MAY be a little loose, but not so's one would do anything about it, still times perfectly. I actually think the M66 has more action wear.

Just one more thing: The USAF was NOT the reason we went to the M9. The move to the 9mm and the M9 was purely political. In the 50s we crammed the 7.62X51 rifle round down our NATO allies throats. Then, less then 7 years later we did the same thing with the 5.56mm round. When the time came for us to pick a successor to the 1911, our allies made clear to us that maybe it was our turn to conform to them instead of the other way around (again). Hence the 9mm Beretta. Many NATO nations used SMGs as well as handguns in 9mm, so even though we did not use SMGs nearly as much we caved and isssued the M9. Other countries are not nearly as handgun savvy as we are and to most of them a handgun is a badge of office more than a weapon. Anyway that is what happened. I am not suggesting that the M9 was the best possible choice in 9mm, but it seems to be working OK-for a 9mm.
OK, EOR, (end of rant).

 

[RussellD]

this thread forced me to go on to Amazon and purchase a vintage Speer #8 reloading manual.

 

[MSgtJimmy]

Retired USAF, served 1981 to 2002 so this is just my .02. I was shooting my Ruger Sec-Six a lot in the mid '80's and was used to widely different loads. I qualified with the issue model 15 in 1985 and can attest that the modern loads kicked more than the 158 RNL I was shooting the most. The FMJ 130 grain slug was pushed into the case more than other older issued ammo that I had seen. I don't for one minute believe that +P loads will damage a K frame but you have to remember that the guns that were used by the general AF population to qualify with were shot like the dickens and most likely had a couple thousand rounds through them each year, particularly at the larger bases so it is POSSIBLE that wear was accelerated. I was and still am a died in the wool S&W fan, especially of K-frames but I did fall in love with the Beretta M-9. I have plenty of Smiths but just the one Beretta.

 

[Dogmann]

So? Will a model 10 digest +p38 loads?

The hot treasury loads?

 

[Fox Creek]

The kitty came back from the morgue and offed itself again

 

[Dogmann]

Lol..............

 

[shouldazagged]

<YAWNNN> As for the phone call to Smith & Wesson, mentioned way the hell back up the thread, the rule for their phone and e-mail people seems to be, "If in doubt, lawyer up." I have one of the 640 no-dashes with the CEN prefix, factory etched "Tested For +P+". I haven't the slightest intention of using +P+ in it and told them so, but merely was curious about the length of time the CENxxx's were manufactured. All they would tell me, more than once, was that my 640 was built in 1990 and they don't approve of using +P+ in any of their guns. Go figure. St. Litigius, the patron saint of excessive caution, strikes again.

 

[sw282]

l have maybe 1500 rds of Super Vel ammo in various calibers from 380acp to 44mag. 0ccasionally lighting off a few rds to compare with todays offings my wrist says Super Vel is still KING. 38Sp for sure......... l have only chronod' some of their 180 gr stuff in 44MAG. From my 29-2 they ran 1803fps. Remington 180s went 1575.
l have a couple boxes of 38Super but have yet to shoot any because both boxes are full.

My op of plusses and pees---- they mostly hype.

l have a couple of old NRA loaders handbooks from the early 50s that list factory ammo pressures tested by HP White Labs. Std 38 Spcl pressures were in low 20s. 357mag in 38,000 PSI range..

HP White Labs are still in business and still test ammo

 

[K-9]

I read it, and your 1972 statement is simply not true. That writter's comments have changed many times over the years. As some of his unverified statements were challenged on this and other forums, he went back and deleted those posts without explanation, and deleted those sections of his story, not using it for future posts. There is an interesting thread in the ammo section of this forum a year or two ago where myself and other LEO's from the 1960's and 70's confirm that the quoted factory velocity numbers back then were pure hype, and not obtainable with standard sidearms. The test barrel for a .357 Magnum in those days was about 11" long and unvented. In 1979 when the new requirements were implemented industry wide for velocity testing, S&W's ammo reported velocities dropped over 20%. Same ammo, just accurate numbers. While it is true that factory velocities were advertised as higher back in 1972, it is not true that they were that fast when shot out of regular revolvers.

Just like the horsepower claims in the 60's. All measured at the flywheel without accessory drives.

 

[Harrison]

After reading all of the above, I will feel safe shooting a 38 spc load of 158gr SWC @ 3.5gr bullseye, in my Mdl 10, Mdl 64 and Mdl 581s.

 

[rockquarry]

There is a two-part article (July & September 1970 editions) of HANDLOADER magazine regarding .38 Special pressures, both factory loads and handloaded duplications. Pressure measurements were taken at the Super Vel laboratory. Articles are both extensive. Hottest factory loads were the 110 grain Norma JHP (27,250) and the Speer-DWM 140 grain JHP (24,756). The 110 grain Super Vel JHP, very popular with law enforcement personnel of that era, came in at 19,000. Super Vel velocity was about 10% slower than the Norma load.

Granted, this was well before +P designations. There was little concern at the time as to possible gun damage from firing any factory load in even an alloyed-framed Chief. However, it's doubtful that many people fired very much of this stuff in any revolver, particularly lightweight ones.

 

[Dave T]

After reading all of the above, I will feel safe shooting a 38 spc load of 158gr SWC @ 3.5gr bullseye, in my Mdl 10, Mdl 64 and Mdl 581s.

I knew a revolver competitor who shot both PPC and the early combat matches in my area. He had a borrowed chronograph set up before a match one weekend and was testing his hand load, the exact same one you listed above. He was getting right close to 850 fps out of his 6" M-14 and a fellow cop with a 4" M-19 got a little over 800 fps (810 sticks in my memory but this was back in the mid to late 1970s). That was THE standard 38 Special factory duplication hand load at the time.

Dave

 

[Alk8944]

At the time of the introduction of the 2" Military & Police revolver ca. 1937 S&W advertised it as being able to shoot the .38-44 cartridge developed for the .38-44 Heavy Duty in 1929. The .38-44 cartridge operates at a pressure level of ca. 25,000 CUP, equivalent to at least 25,000 PSI. This is ca. 30% higher pressure than current .38 Special +P.

Does anyone suppose that S&W revolvers manufactured at any time since 1937 are in any way inferior in materials or design to the same model built that year? Of course any K-Frame manufactured after 1937 is safe to shoot modern +P ammunition, as long as it is in good mechanical condition. This is simple common sense based on S&W's own advertising literature, and for anyone to claim to the contrary is simply silly at best.

Will shooting higher pressure loads result in more rapid wear on a K-Frame? Of course it will, but it will not cause catastrophic failure, or render the gun unserviceable in even a few hundred rounds. It is just like your car or any other machine, the harder a revolver is worked the more frequently maintenance will be needed, that is why spare parts are available!

 

[rwsmith]

Heard this many times......

But this is the first time that the explanation was accompanied by hard numbers, especially comparing the actual loads from time past.

 

[Harrison]

Experts on the subject with two totally opposite opinions, is very confusing. Not knowing who is correct and just to be safe, and not harming any of my K frames, if the barrel doesn't say +P, I will not shoot +P in it. I have L frames to shoot the +P stuff in.

 

[ikor]

A sticky won't help...no one ever reads 'em.

As for the AF guns. The Beretta was, and is IMO, a very good pistol, but there is zero doubt that Jack Robbins and company exaggerated about the condition of those M15's a mite.

 

[Fredo Batali]

Who cares? Enough already! My eyes hurt!

De Oppresso Liber