Air Force Combat Masterpiece
- Thread starter Cyrano
- Start date
I know this post is old DWalt, but wondered if you remember Bob Day, I was at Wilford Hall in March of 1997 with my Dad, who was having an adult Stem Cell transplant, God Bless the United States Air Force, and fine Doctors, Nurses, and in particular a Civilian Social Worker, who supported patients and their families, (I am an Air Force Brat), and proud of it. My Dad's Dr. was a Red Headed Major, sadly I don't remember his name, but his love and respect for my Dad was a tangible blessing and encouragement to my DAD, he sent him home to the BOQ, just to get him out of the hospital for a day. I will forever be gratefull as he live another 5 years, thanks to his transplant. Anyway, I drove around San Antone, and found Bob's shop, but he was out that day. billymagg
Texas Star
US Veteran
Assuming that it was really a .357 and not a .38, it'd have to be a Model 19. It was introduced about that year, although supples of it reaching USAF channels so soon seem unlikely. It was the first S&W snub .357, unless one counts the big M-27. I recall reading a review of it by Larry Koller in a gun magazine that year.
BTW, I stayed at Goose AFB for a week or two then, while processing out. I was stationed at a radar station in Newfoundland and some of the admin. process for us was carried out at Goose Bay. The fighters we called out to intercept Soviet aircraft invading Canadian airspace came down from Goose.
I knew a couple of brothers who'd been stationed at Fairchild AFB, WA and thair unit there had the snub .38 designated M-56. It was probably the forerunner of the commercial M-15 snub. Both said that it was very hard to qualify with, the men not having enough shooting experience to shoot snub guns well.
Ironically, today's shooters in snubby matches often choose the M-15 for its added weight and adjustable sights over the smaller snubs. But they are practiced, motivated marksmen.
As an aside, does anyone know what those AF badges like in the photo in the OP sell for on E-Bay? I realize that there's a bidding process, but what is the usual range?
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Rapidray
Member
Fairchild AFB...I know that one...was born there! I also checked EBay and could find nothing but minutures or pin type. Will keep looking thou.
jonesy814
Member
I talked to my dad after posting this. He said the gun had a 2.5 in barrel and adjustable sights. Also it was nickel plated so it probably was a m19
Texas Star
US Veteran
Well, the snub M-19 has a 2.5 inch bbl. and was optionally available in nickel plate, so that's probably it.
kwill1911
Member
Well, before we close the case I must say that I don't believe a nickel plated Model 19 could have been issued. It would have been a private purchase. AFAIK the USAF has never bought Model 19 revolvers and certainly not nickel plated ones. I intend no insult to your dad but memories are tricky things. The Air Force issued Model 15s with 4" barrels and Model 56s with 2" barrels. I don't believe there were any .357 Magnum revolvers or ammunition in the supply chain.
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There is a program ( forget the official name) where le agencies can get equipment for free from the Feds. This includes firearms and it doesn't seem like a lot of this is tracked administratively very much. I could easily see some USAF 15's getting loaned to an agency and getting thrown in with a surplus sale during the switch to auto loader in the 90's. Also I wonder if some may have been available for sale to Air Force personnel back in the 60's ? In those days many bases had gun clubs that sold guns to members and perhaps some could have leaked out as well. I spent most of my service in the army but during a brief time I transferred to the Air Force I did qualify once with the model 15 and having fired pistols a long time the instructors figured I knew a bit about pistol shooting firing the best score they had seen in some time. As I recall the pistols issued were a mix of plain blued and re parkerized guns. One of my coworkers is a retired aviator and recalls those model 56's ( basically a 15 snub) from his service. My only pistol of the type I own is a 15 2" and would like to add a four inch soon. ( my bullseye guns are six inch 14&17's) I just seem to shoot the old wheel guns better
kwill1911
Member
LBJ stopped the sale of surplus handguns through the DCM in 1968. Clinton signed an Executive Order that stopped the sale of surplus law enforcement guns to the public in 1994.
DWalt
Member
Sorry, I don't remember that name. We had both civilians (like me) and enlisted in the USAF Gunsmith Shop, and there was a lot of turnover as the military guys rotated through. I left in late 2007, and at this time, I hardly remember anyone who was there. At that time, our principal function was making up special M9s for General Officer issue and rebuilding thousands of high-mileage M16A2s, plus the occasional special project, such as accurizing M14s, mounting sights on M249s, etc.
jonesy814
Member
Well, I believe he IS correct. He has owned guns, including 38 special revolvers all his life, and knows a .357 when he sees one. The fact that it WAS a .357, is why it sticks out to him, because everyone knows the USAF issued 38's. In his 20 years, he never saw them issued anywhere else so possibly it was because he was outside the US. Or, possibly it was something they were considering, and got a few in to assess. I found a picture on the web of some different S&W snubbies including a nickel M19, and he immediately pointed it out and said "it was just like that one". Who knows with the government.
Kwill while both of your statements are true, if possession of a gun was transferred to a non federal agency and eventually was taken "off the books" what the non fed agency did with it is no longer much concern to the Feds so to speak
bigsky5
Member
Brings back memories just seeing AF ribbons and USAF Model 15s...... Just joined the forum a few minutes ago and have two questions for anyone:
1) I remember from my active duty days, some USAF Model 15s were blued and some were parkerized--but some did not have "USAF" markings, but rather, "US" markings...does anyone have any additional details on this?
2) I have a civilian Combat Masterpiece Model 15-4, purchased back in 1989, with the serial number: X7XXx, where the "little x" denotes an actual number... Does anyone know what the significance is of three Xs in this serial number? Was this the end of the Model 15 production run? Has anyone else seen a serial number similar to this?
Deeply appreciate any help you can lend, as well as any insights.
Kindest Regards,
Steve
1) I remember from my active duty days, some USAF Model 15s were blued and some were parkerized--but some did not have "USAF" markings, but rather, "US" markings...does anyone have any additional details on this?
2) I have a civilian Combat Masterpiece Model 15-4, purchased back in 1989, with the serial number: X7XXx, where the "little x" denotes an actual number... Does anyone know what the significance is of three Xs in this serial number? Was this the end of the Model 15 production run? Has anyone else seen a serial number similar to this?
Deeply appreciate any help you can lend, as well as any insights.
Kindest Regards,
Steve
Steve,
Parkerizing on the Model 15's started probably in the late 1970's or early '80s at some of the bases. By that time the orignal finishes were virtually worn off.
Figure that most of these 15's had been in the inventory of arms rooms since the 1960's and issued how many times x 3 shifts in a 24 hour period..that's alot of holster wear!
Your question on the serial number. Here is the list for K frames starting in 1957.
K288,989 – K317,822...1957
K317,823 – K350,547...1958
K350,548 – K386,804...1959
K386,805 – K429,894...1960
K429,895 – K468,098...1961
K468,099 – K515,478...1962
K515,479 – K553,999....1963
K555,000 – K605.877....1964
K605,878 – K658.986....1965
K658,987 – K715,996....1966
K715,997 – K779.162....1967
K779,163 – K848,781....1968
K848,782 – K946,391....1969
K946,382 – K999,999....1970
1K1 – 1K39,500.........1970
2K1 – 2K22.037.........1970
1K39,501 – 1K999,999...1971
2K22,038 – 2K55,996....1971
3K1 – 3K73,962.........1971
2K55,997 – 2K99,999....1972
3K31,280 – 5K6,616.....1972
4K1 – 4K1,627..........1972
4K1,628 – 4K54,104.....1973
5K6,617 – 5K73,962.....1973
4K54,105 – 4K99,999....1974
5K73,963 – 6K58,917....1974
7K1 – 7K26,043.........1974
7K26,044 – 7K70,577....1975
6K98,918 – 8K20,763....1975
8K20,764 – 9K1.........1975
8K20,000 – 9K100,000...1975
9K1,001 – 9K99,999.....1976
10K001 – 24K9,999......1977
25K001 – 56K9,999......1978 – 79
57K001 – 91K6,800......1980
91K6,801 – 124K000.....1981
125K000 – 269K9,999....1982
270K000 – 311K273......1983
1980 Three-Letter Prefix Series Begins at AAA000
From 1957 to 1970 K was the first digit of the serial number on K frame revolvers.
The pinned barrel was discontinued around late 1981.
Hope this answers your question.
Parkerizing on the Model 15's started probably in the late 1970's or early '80s at some of the bases. By that time the orignal finishes were virtually worn off.
Figure that most of these 15's had been in the inventory of arms rooms since the 1960's and issued how many times x 3 shifts in a 24 hour period..that's alot of holster wear!
Your question on the serial number. Here is the list for K frames starting in 1957.
K288,989 – K317,822...1957
K317,823 – K350,547...1958
K350,548 – K386,804...1959
K386,805 – K429,894...1960
K429,895 – K468,098...1961
K468,099 – K515,478...1962
K515,479 – K553,999....1963
K555,000 – K605.877....1964
K605,878 – K658.986....1965
K658,987 – K715,996....1966
K715,997 – K779.162....1967
K779,163 – K848,781....1968
K848,782 – K946,391....1969
K946,382 – K999,999....1970
1K1 – 1K39,500.........1970
2K1 – 2K22.037.........1970
1K39,501 – 1K999,999...1971
2K22,038 – 2K55,996....1971
3K1 – 3K73,962.........1971
2K55,997 – 2K99,999....1972
3K31,280 – 5K6,616.....1972
4K1 – 4K1,627..........1972
4K1,628 – 4K54,104.....1973
5K6,617 – 5K73,962.....1973
4K54,105 – 4K99,999....1974
5K73,963 – 6K58,917....1974
7K1 – 7K26,043.........1974
7K26,044 – 7K70,577....1975
6K98,918 – 8K20,763....1975
8K20,764 – 9K1.........1975
8K20,000 – 9K100,000...1975
9K1,001 – 9K99,999.....1976
10K001 – 24K9,999......1977
25K001 – 56K9,999......1978 – 79
57K001 – 91K6,800......1980
91K6,801 – 124K000.....1981
125K000 – 269K9,999....1982
270K000 – 311K273......1983
1980 Three-Letter Prefix Series Begins at AAA000
From 1957 to 1970 K was the first digit of the serial number on K frame revolvers.
The pinned barrel was discontinued around late 1981.
Hope this answers your question.
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bigsky5
Member
Thank you. I deeply appreciate the info. I'm now thinking I need to carefully try to do a more detailed inspection and find out why my Model 15-4 does not show a serial number, except for the X7XXx on the yoke. I have 2 theories: 1) the X7XXx on the yoke is not the S/N but some other assembly number (S&W says the only S/Ns that were placed on the yoke were those models that were factory shipped with target grips--mine does not have target grips, so possibly they were removed at some point), and 2) the 15-4 S/N must be somewhere else or it has been removed from the butt--but the finish looks perfect. Oh well, the search continues--thank you again.
bigsky5
Member
Please disregard comment I made about the target grips... I do have what is officially known as "target grips" on my Model 15-4 ...they are just not the oversized ones I thought were called that. I'm obviously not a S&W expert. Thanks
Seven High
Member
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If you were to ask a LEO to check your Model 15 for stolen, he will insist that he have it in his hand. If its been reported as stolen, it will be confiscated immediately.
After someone mentioned General LeMay, I remembered that he was a "gun guy" , unusual in very high ranking military officers of that(and this) time. I read that he was the original driving force behind the M16 when he was SAC commander, just before he became AF Chief of Staff. I had the privilege of meeting him in the early 60s at Ubon AFB where myself and some other Army aviators were flying Mohawks out of there. On the base, pursuant to orders from our Army CO we were always armed with a handgun. I was walking toward base OPS one day when the great man was visiting. I was an Army MSG as I was an enlisted pilot(enlisted at on my 17th birthday and was still under 18 when I graduated from flight school). I was 20 at the time and looked 14. The Army uniform was still the baggy green skin with white name/US Army tapes. The general was walking toward me with an abundance of other great men in attendance and a few AF Police. I saluted of course, and LeMay walked up to me and asked "exactly whose Air Force are you in son". I told him I was assigned to the Army contingent on the other side of the field, he noted my flight wings and asked "you fly those things?" pointing to a group of JOV1As down at the end of the flight line, I of course said "yes sir". He looked at my side arm (an M10 RB heavy barrel) in an AF holster on my web belt. He asked me "you know how to use that thing kid"? I again said "yes sir" slightly loudly(could not have THE USAF General Officer think an Army guy could not shoot). "Let me see that weapon" he said. Whereupon I did a proper administrative presentation (we did not call it that back then), dumped the ammo in my hand the way the AF instructor on the base had told us when we qualified periodically, and presented a just cleaned well oiled up M10 with personally owned grips. "Are these issue grips" the big guy asked, I told him that 'I issued them to myself sir, they help me shoot better". All this transpired while he held a really big cigar in one side of his mouth. He looked at my (brand new) shiny flight wings, he said, "you want to be an AF pilot see the personnel officer, we'll make you a real officer", said, "keep taking care of your sidearm son, you may need it someday" and they all stalked off. Trailing the group was an AF SP SGT I knew, I asked him if they were not worried about the General walking around a bomber being armed with a lit cigar, as it could blow up, the guy told me "it wouldn't dare". My first and last time standing on the same piece of real estate with one of the USAFs' greatest warriors. He was a really impressive guy IMHO, and given the number of other wearers of various numbers of stars following him at a very close distance (BN distance), he was either greatly respected or greatly feared. IN any case he built one hell of a AF.
tipoc
Member
Because this is a thread about AF issued Combat Masterpieces and M15s I'll be brief and not digress too much.
The 15-4s were a brief run from about 1977-82 or so.
How you would know it is a 15-4 must be because the model number is stamped on the yoke. Directly above that is where the serial number should be. It should also be on the butt.
I encourage you to take a close look at the number with a magnifying glass and in good light. See if the number is stamped over or if you may be mis-identifying a number.
tipoc
