Some lessons in penetration today.....

[rojodiablo]

So, we all feel we have a reason or 3 as to why we prefer to carry what. Or why we feel using this rifle beats that rifle, etc.

Learned some things today; #1. Hello, Captain Obvious. Bigger IS better.
#2. Just because it is bigger does NOT mean it is going to be unfriendly to work with.
#3. If there is any hard material between you and whatever is facing you; hope the hard material is on your side, and not working for the other guy.

Story: Went hunting quail today for the opener. And, it was really more of a hike with a shotgun and the dog. Very dry, and zero birds. But, we had a couple of rifles to sight in, and that made the trip worthwhile.
I built a bunch of targets out of 3/8" grade AR514 steel, 12"x12". It's about as tough a steel as you can find readily available. We use it for our dozer buckets and loader buckets.
I have shot at them with various guns previously, and they are pretty resilient, from my past experience. But today..... was different!

Gun #1. Springfield XD. 9mm. FMJ, 124gr. The target was set at 50 yds, where we were sighting in my sons' rifle. And, we were plinking as well. So, the 9mm hits the steel, at 50 yds and bounces off. Nothing more than a shiny spot, and a mildly deformed bullet. (What can I say? A 9mm hitting a 12x12 at 50 is great shooting, but it has little poop left behind it.)

Gun #2. The venerable AR15. Xm855 ammo. Much louder plinking, and it actually scratches the steel nicely with the penetrator tips. Buuuttt...... there is no dent on the backside. And, the penetration/ deformation is limited to marring up the steel. Looks like one mean bobcat took to the metal.

Gun#3. The AR10. Well, an evil Bushmaster. And, you are asking.... just how evil? Well, we sighted in an Eotech on it, and then put it to the steel. And, it dented the steel, a little bit. And it scratched the steel up pretty good. Gored into the surface maybe 1/8" to 3/16" at 50 yds. You could see a 'flea bite' on the backside of the plate. FMJ, 147gr NATO ammo.

Gun #4. The 30-06. Now, all we had was some soft point Winchester XPII ammo, which we hunt hogs with. No FMJ, no black tip stuff. My son John did the honors, and put one in the plate. GONG! Annndddd...................... It punched the plate, almost going completely thru. There is a .45" press punch type indent a full 3/8" in, and the steel cracked on the back, say 70% of the circumference of the pressed piece from the bullet. Better than half the bullet is fused into the plate. It's in there like a dentist hammered in a filling.

And, then the big Bambucha.
Gun #5. Remington 700. 300WinMag. hate him if you want; my son got the rifle brand new for $450 earlier this year, with a scope. There were no 30-06 anywhere in our area, and this was the best deal we had seen in months. So, he bought it.
And, it shoots like a DREAM. For those who dread massive recoil, all I can say is: It's easier on the shooter than my 7mm mag. And, it is FAR friendlier than my 300 Weatherby magnum ever was. It really feels like a slightly more stout 30-06. And that was it. I am really impressed with it.
So, Federal soft tip ammo, blue box, 180gr. $24 at Wally World. BANG. KONK!!! A very clean, and I mean straight thru, no questions asked, 5/8" HOLE thru the 3/8" steel. The bullet was dug out of the dirt in back of the plate. It was easy to find..... it was the little thing in the ground that was about 250 degrees......The bullet fused to the steel it punched out. The slug retrieved was heavier than the 180 gr projectile by a considerable amount.
He did it again, but the second time with 2 of the plates back to back. The result was the first plate had a hole of almost 3/4" thru it. And the backup plate had a mark on it, but no penetration and no dent on the backside.

So, what we really learned today was this: 3/8" steel is fine at 100yds. But at 50, it is not enough. If you are thinking the .223 is going to do the job, you better be more particular on shot placement. because it's not up to certain tasks, and it would not be fair to expect it to be all things to all people.
There has been a debate on the 308/ 30-06 ever since....well, ever since the M14 rolled into the field and replaced the M1 Garand. All I can say is; if you are betting that your 308 has the same smoke behind it as the 30-06, or it will perform 'just as well'..... if you are shooting deer, you may be right. If you are looking to take a moose, bear or elk?? There would be no contest in my opinion. The straight to steel comparison today was crystal clear.
And, clearest of all...... was the 300Winmag has a ferocious power delivery- but in the new rifle we used, it was a really manageable round that a shooter should not be scared to consider or try.

I will try to get some pics of my battered steel plate tomorrow.

 

[LVSteve]

Soft point ammo will often penetrate steel that FMJ won't. I suspect the 7.62 NATO surplus deformed as the tip collapsed and the bullet went in mostly sideways so it did not penetrate. The 30-06 SP ammo would not do this as the lead would deform fast enough to allow the bullet to stay on course. The bullet staying square meant that it was exerting more force in a smaller area than the tumbling 7.62 NATO round, so you got more penetration.

Yes, I know it sounds bass-ackwards, but large armour piercing naval shells had a soft point over the hardened penetrator because it sort of pre-stressed the armour on initial contact.

 

[chud333]

Good info my friend.
On game animals however, i am trying to transfer as much
energy as possible "into" the animal and not always needing
superior penetration. I myself much prefer to keep the bullet
and energy inside the game rather than punching clean through.
On larger African game such as Elephant, Cape Buffalo, etc.
you cannot have "too much" penetration, but here in the states
"most" game animals don't require a great deal of it.
I can concur with your .30-06 testing as i have also shot some
Metal piercing rounds into an old natural gas tank found down
on the river one time and it sliced thru it like a hot knife thru
butter.

Chuck

 

[rojodiablo]

It makes some sense Steve. I was impressed primarily because the ammo we were shooting is not bonded ammo for hunting; just regular off the shelf stuff. I find the Winchester XPII really accurate and it does hold together well. But it went beyond expectations today; at 100yds, it flattens and bends when we find it in the dirt under the target.
My son just pointed out that we did use 2 types of ammo in the 308; M80 ball, and Wolf/WPA. We got them both back (Souvenirs.) The Wolf folded over 90 degrees and split its' side and front. The M80 ammo flattened and splat more. More of the jacket was destroyed on the M80 ammo. (Maybe a little hotter, or a softer skin than the Wolf ammo?)
Seemed the M80 squared up really well, whereas the Wolf ammo slid off more.
It really takes a helluva nail to pound into this stuff!!!

It's interesting Chuck; the XPII and the Federal ammo I have used in multiple calibers for years with great success. They both open up quickly needing minimal bone contact to get good expansion. I really like both of them a lot. I was surprised mostly by the fact that they did not tear apart much in this 'test' as when they are shot into an animal, they lose weight a bit, and when shot into sandy desert soil, they shred themselves within 6 inches of impact.

Bullets act different when they hit different targets!!!!

 

[chud333]

The best hunting bullet i've used on deer sized game have
been Hornady Soft points with the lead exposed tip.
Used lots of different Hollow points with varying degrees
of success.
A quick short story:
The first time we decided to go out west on a prairie dog shoot
we practised all spring shooting the best match bullets we could
get. We we're shooting mostly .223, .22-250, and .220 swift
so we bought hundreds of Sierra Match bullets and some Berger
match bullets as well in .224 diameter for our accuracy testing.
Now these we're sometimes one hole group bullets at 100 yards
but when we got out on the P-dogs we we're shooting them
and simply "penciled" right thru alot and they would still be able
to get to their holes even after hit. The next year we said the heck
with sub-MOA accuracy and loaded Nosler Ballistic tips and Hornady
V-max bullets and when you hit a p-dog it blew into a hundred pieces.
Lesson learned....
Chuck

 

[Hack]

Thanks for the info. Not being picky, but you put out a lot of information, so I had to re-read most of it.

Hint:
You might want to go back and edit your post. You've got two gun #4's and the paragraphs run together.

 

[rojodiablo]

Thanks for the info. Not being picky, but you put out a lot of information, so I had to re-read most of it.

Hint:
You might want to go back and edit your post. You've got two gun #4's and the paragraphs run together.

I don't drink anymore.

My writing has gone to hell ever since!!!

 

[Hack]

Yeah. I still drink, and it doesn't seem to help either. Good job with the edit.