Sadly - Another .40 Shield Kaboom

[Roger S&W]

I probably was not clear using my autopsy analogy.

It is pointless to think S&W or using my example of a doctor performing an autopsy on their own patient (which would never happen) would conclude they were at fault

In our legal system accused criminals cannot be compelled to incriminate themselves.

Thinking S&W would admit fault is self incrimination.

S&W taking possession of the blownup weapon to evaluate cause is like asking OJ Simpson to try on a pair of gloves.

Surprise the glove didn't fit nor is the blownup gun S&Ws fault per Smith and Wessons objective evaluation.

Russ

An M.D. called you out on the autopsy analogy. Now we're just waiting for a J.D. to do the same with your O.J. analogy.
(but I know what you're saying)
A lot of professionals among us here. That's a good thing.

 

[modraker]

Um, I'll take a guess and say that may be one of the guys that had their gun blow up in their hand will notify them of what happened? May be the guy who almost lost his eye too? As a piece of shrapnel hit him in the face just below his eye causing blood to run down his face?
Pure speculation on my part though. I wasn't injured.
I do have a Shield 40 though, unfired. I've only had it since Christmas. Now I'm hesitant to go shoot it.

I didn't even know the commission existed until I read it here in the forum. Let's hope at least one of the kaboom victims report it.

I'm bummed out by what's going on with the 40 Shield. It was my EDC and my favorite gun. I took it to the range every chance I got. It functions perfectly and is very accurate. Now I can't even hold it without thinking the next shot could blow up in my hand.

 

[Roger S&W]

A friend of mine got me thinking when he said this:
The market for tiny pistols in service calibers is booming, and there seems to be constant one-upmanship between the various companies coming out with smaller and smaller pistols in powerful calibers. No matter how good an engineer you are, you still have to contend with physics; you have less material and less of a safety margin. For example, less mass in the slide means more of a reliance upon the recoil spring, both in keeping the breach locked and in returning the slide fully to battery. Combine these issues with the .40, which already tends to push the edge of safe operating pressures, and its not entirely surprising that failures like this are happening.
2,783 views of this thread in 13 hours. Must be a record.

 

[JMike]

Um, I'll take a guess and say that may be one of the guys that had their gun blow up in their hand will notify them of what happened? May be the guy who almost lost his eye too? As a piece of shrapnel hit him in the face just below his eye causing blood to run down his face?
Pure speculation on my part though. I wasn't injured.
I do have a Shield 40 though, unfired. I've only had it since Christmas. Now I'm hesitant to go shoot it.

I wouldn't be hesitant to shoot it. Just shoot factory ammo that is not loaded to +P and you should be fine.

I am really glad the OP wasn't seriously hurt and just hate this for him. However, I do have a few thoughts though and keep in mind, this is just my opinion. It is like so many other things, everyone has one.

That Underwood ammo is bat-****, crazy hot! A 135 gr 40SW bullet traveling at 1400-1500 fps is nuts!

I have looked at all of the top tier ammunition manufacturers like Winchester, PMC, Federal, etc and I can't find anyone that is loading ammo that hot. There must be a pretty good reason why. That particular round is the hottest I can find. It generates 675 ft lbs of muzzle energy, which is higher than anything manufactured by anyone.

Here is a link others can use to find out how hot their ammo is relative to other manufacturers.

40 Caliber Smith & Wesson Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

My guess is that S&W views this strictly as an ammo problem.

It will be interesting to see how Underwood responds to all of this.

 

[Roger S&W]

I wouldn't be hesitant to shoot it. Just shoot factory ammo that is not loaded to +P and you should be fine.

I am really glad the OP wasn't seriously hurt and just hate this for him. However, I do have a few thoughts though and keep in mind, this is just my opinion. It is like so many other things, everyone has one.

That Underwood ammo is bat-****, crazy hot! A 135 gr 40SW bullet traveling at 1400-1500 fps is nuts!

I have looked at all of the top tier ammunition manufacturers like Winchester, PMC, Federal, etc and I can't find anyone that is loading ammo that hot. There must be a pretty good reason why. That particular round is the hottest I can find. It generates 675 ft lbs of muzzle energy, which is higher than anything manufactured by anyone.

Here is a link others can use to find out how hot their ammo is relative to other manufacturers.

40 Caliber Smith & Wesson Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

My guess is that S&W views this strictly as an ammo problem.

It will be interesting to see how Underwood responds to all of this.

In fairness to all parties involved. Underwood clearly states their velocities and muzzle energies on their website. Furthermore, it is understood these are hot loads designed for maximum terminal ballistics. For example, hunters really love their ammo for large game. It's also understood, you should have a fully supported chamber before even thinking about firing their hotter ammo in addition to your firearm being rated to handle +P or +P+.
Reality is, I would not shoot this type of ammo out of a small, thin .40 caliber pistol like the Shield.
But now the question is...what about Speer Gold Dot 165 or 180 grain hollow points? Many of us trust our lives to these rounds, Are they warm enough to blow up your Shield 40?

 

[NCooper]

100 rounds of 165 gr speer gold dot through my shield without a kaboom yet.

Fingers crossed that it never will

 

[dougb1946]

It would be nice to have some actual numbers on this. How many Shields have been sold, how many blew up, how many due to ammo, how many due to materials. The problem with the internet is we get to hear all the bad, but get just a little of the good.
Is there a place that publishes failure rates for guns? Car dealers have to report to the govt on failures, and I've bought cars for less than a few of my guns. Granted, the cars were not that good, but the data was available.

 

[Hodado]

Thank you 1951 for your honesty concerning your incident with the Shield .40.I was about to purchase one myself.Knowing how S&W has treated you without offering you a replacement after their analysis of your firearm has left me confused.I have always considered S&W to be the premier manufacturer of the world,but now have my doubts.I hope they come to their senses and this issue is resolved without any legal action.

 

[CommonCents]

That's crazy. Glad you're ok. I wonder why S&W wouldn't just replace your firearm? It's got to be less expensive than even an hours worth of their attorney to respond to a letter.

Hope it works out for you!

I'm sure their attorneys say if they replace it, they admit some fault/responsibility.

Are all the known problems with .40 vs the 9?

 

[litauer]

Firearms are exempt from the Consumer Protection Act of 1973 and for good reason.

 

[11e40]

first, I have no dog in this fight. second, I have noticed over the years that most of pistols that have gone kaboom are in .40 s&w. just seems to me there is pattern here. third, looking at pictures posted the case appears to have failed. it would appear to myself that this is a case of ammo loaded too hot. just my opinion.

 

[Silversmok3]

I strolled on over to the Underwood ammo site, and what I found is nothing less then frightening.

Underwood has a the right to profit on consumer ignorance, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. What they've done is created a 10mm Auto round, and shoved it into the smaller case of the .40S&W. Now, if you can go back to Gun History 101, you'll discover that the entire point of the .40 S&W was to shrink the case from full size 10mm ,because the extra space wasn't necessary to hold the load for 900 FPS speed.

Now, no offense to the OP, but if you want to shoot 10mm the solution is to buy a 10mm handgun.If the OP loaded a .38 Special case to .357 magnum power and blew up his revolver there wouldn't be a controversey.Yet so far that is what appears to be the case here, except the OP bought his ammo pre-Bubbad.

Pay attention before ordering ammunition! I realize times are tough, politicians are running their yaps and prices are going up, but seriously check the fine print before ordering an explosive product! If your car said "No Diesel Fuel" you wouldn't just fill up at a random gas pump without asking. So it goes for ammo. If you're shopping for a defensive load and see "UBER MANSTOPPER ! Special High Velocity Blend!" , that's cue to halt and await further investigation. Were talking about ammunition, not French blend coffee.

The real defensive loads of substance don't need that drivel, because their records are all the advertising they need.And if you look at the spec charts and the ammo for your compact .40 pistol is moving faster then your 1006 hunting loads, you should probably pass on it.

Hopefully some folks reading this can learn a thing or two,and that goes for myself as well.

 

[NCooper]

Dougb1946

There are five known k abooms on this forum alone.

Figure out how many shield 40 owners there are and it would give you a percentage rate of failures. Might not be an accurate number , but will give us an idea.

So if there were only 100 owners 5 out that would a little scary at 5%
more likely there are a 1000 owners which would be .005% or 1/2 of 1%

But in all reality It sounds like there is lots of bad ammo out there.

 

[PurpleMountainOutdoors]

Supposedly, and I'm not expert, but according to the folks at Underwood, their loads are within SAAMI spec. As for their 40+p... I would never shoot that in a Glock, or a shield.

Their 10mm stuff however in a Glock 20 is surprisingly low recoil, and their are no signs of excess pressure or bulging.

Their 38+p downright hurts in an airweight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Franklin]

How many of you Shield fans are still wanting a Shield in .45??? That one may Kaboom by just thing about pulling the bang switch!

 

[Silversmok3]

Supposedly, and I'm not expert, but according to the folks at Underwood, their loads are within SAAMI spec. As for their 40+p... I would never shoot that in a Glock, or a shield.

Their 10mm stuff however in a Glock 20 is surprisingly low recoil, and their are no signs of excess pressure or bulging.

Their 38+p downright hurts in an airweight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SAAMI eh?

Can you show me the SAAMI limit on .40 S&W +P, then?

Just because a manufacturer of a product says it's "certified" doesnt make it so.

 

[Silversmok3]

How many of you Shield fans are still wanting a Shield in .45??? That one may Kaboom by just thing about pulling the bang switch!

Only if you buy .45 Super +p from a guy who says his homemade ammo is SAAMI certified.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Call me a traditionalist, but I don't own any handgun chambered for the .40 S&W. I also don't own a 10mm or a .357 SIG. There are two very time-tested rounds on both sides of these numbers, namely the .45 ACP and the 9mm Luger. Guns for both have been around a long time and have been thoroughly vetted over the years. They have long records of being effective, particularly with modern defense ammo.

If I go 9mm, it's a S&W 3913NL, an H&K P7PSP squeeze-cocker, or a S&W Model 59.

In .45, it's a compact 1911, an H&K USP, a Glock 30, a S&W 457 or a Kahr CW 45 compact.

9mm guns chamber a high-pressure number, and the specifications for safe barrels have been around for many, many decades. The .45 ACP guns are "bloop tubes" and do not operate at particularly high pressures; again the guns for them have been around for a while and are thoroughly vetted.

Again, call me a traditionalist, old-fashioned or conservative, but I've NEVER had a kaboom with either of these two rounds, and with the proper ammo, feel very adequately armed with the guns mentioned.

And remember, "Whatever anyone says about me, I've done worse."
- S.D. "Tio Sam" Myres

John

 

[peterthefish]

SAAMI eh?



Can you show me the SAAMI limit on .40 S&W +P, then?



Just because a manufacturer of a product says it's "certified" doesnt make it so.

I'll add to this. The hottest published load I can find with the 135 Nosler JHP gets to 1,305 FPS and pressure is right at a SAAMI spec pressure. I'd like to know where they got that extra 150 FPS while staying in Spec.

 

[Click-Click-BOOM]

Plus-P Facts

Was thinking about a 40 shield as my new carry ... But now may go with the Compact... Hope this helps alittle...

The term "+p" refers to ammunition which is loaded by the manufacturer to a pressure level above the normal SAAMI specification. But "+p" is still a recognized SAAMI specification (e.g., 9mm+p, .45ACP+p).

The term +p+, used only in reference to 9mm ammunition usually, refers to a round loaded beyond any SAAMI specifications. Most NATO-spec ammunition tends to be +p+. There is no SAAMI specification for "+p+" ammunition.

By manufacturing ammunition to a higher pressure level, companies can achieve greater velocity with any given bullet. This means more momentum and muzzle energy, but usually an increase in recoil and muzzle flip as well (particularly in .45ACP +p).

There is no such thing as .40S&W +p! Period. No exceptions. There is not a SAAMI specification for .40S&W loads beyond the standard pressure. Any company which sells ammunition loaded above the standard SAAMI specification is selling dangerous ammunition. There are no firearms rated to use such ammunition. If you really feel you need a .40S&W +p, you can go out and buy a proper gun and ammunition for it. Just go to the gun shop and ask for a 10mm.

If you are considering using .40S&W ammunition which is rated "+p" by the manufacturer, at the very least do yourself a favor and call the company to find out if they are (a) mislabeling their product for marketing purposes, (b) mislabeling their product because they do not know or understand SAAMI terminology, or (c) making out-of-spec ammunition.

The same is true for .380ACP and 357SIG and 10mm. There is no +p specification, and ammunition which is loaded beyond SAAMI specification is dangerous. Period.

The 9mm and .45ACP, however, does have an official SAAMI +p rating. Most modern nines and forty-fives are rated for +p ammunition, though most will show accelerated wear if they fire a steady diet of nothing but +p ammunition.

In 9mm, most people consider only the +p or +p+ loads as viable for personal defense. While I think there are some exceptions (the 147gr Remington Golden Saber, for example), as a general rule I'd rather have the added velocity from a +p or +p+ round. Unlike the .45ACP +p, 9mm +p does not tend to have significantly greater recoil.

A +p load in a .45ACP handgun comes close to matching a full power 10mm in both power and recoil. Remington produces both a normal JHP and a Golden Saber BJHP in 185gr +p moving at 1,140fps, an improvement of about 125fps over the normal pressure loads. The Golden Saber in particular is a good design for the increased velocity. For heavier bullets, ProLoad makes both a 200gr +p and 230gr +p using the Speer Gold Dot at 1,000 and 920fps, respective

Here's the link from where I coped... http://greent.com/40Page/general/plusp.htm