.38 wadcutter velocity for defense
- Thread starter Waywatcher
- Start date
Water-Man
US Veteran
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
It's interesting how rapidly a thread can start going sideways.
Not pleasant, just interesting.
Not pleasant, just interesting.
bmcgilvray
Member
Lots of opinion regarding appropriate .38 Special loads for self-defense.
I hold that a good stiff lead double-ended wadcutter or a semi-wadcutter load would offer much splat on the receiving end.
The single most overrated and oversold item in self-defense .38 Special ammunition is the bullet jacket as a required component before a .38 Special self-defense load may be considered to be effective, yet so many buy into this notion.
I hold that a good stiff lead double-ended wadcutter or a semi-wadcutter load would offer much splat on the receiving end.
The single most overrated and oversold item in self-defense .38 Special ammunition is the bullet jacket as a required component before a .38 Special self-defense load may be considered to be effective, yet so many buy into this notion.
Will Carry
Member
I read somewhere that wadcutters did not work like people think, that a wadcutter doesn't really cut a hole any better than RNL. I'm sure I don't know the answer to that. I worry less and less about the particular round I use in my model 36. There ain't no special round that can turn a snub nosed 38 into a grizzly bear stopper. Right now I'm using Hornidy Critical Defense and Glazer silver dot. (Don't ask me about the Glazer silver dots!)
Baised on actual shootings, one of the best 38 Special rounds has been the 158gr Lead SWC HP. I am most familar with the old Winchester version.
While I never shot anybody with it myself, I know of several shootings where it performed very well, including several snubby shootings.
If I was to buy some 38 Special ammo today, for protective carry, I would buy the Buffalo Bore version of this load...
However, once upon a time I was gifted some Federal +P+ 147gr Hydra-Shock 38 Special ammo, so I carry it.
Also, I would much prefer to carry 38 Target wadcutters rather than 158gr Round Nosed lead bullets...
While I never shot anybody with it myself, I know of several shootings where it performed very well, including several snubby shootings.
If I was to buy some 38 Special ammo today, for protective carry, I would buy the Buffalo Bore version of this load...
However, once upon a time I was gifted some Federal +P+ 147gr Hydra-Shock 38 Special ammo, so I carry it.
Also, I would much prefer to carry 38 Target wadcutters rather than 158gr Round Nosed lead bullets...
Incorrect. This man got 1,063 in a 2" barrel with the BB +p .38:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests.html
However, the BB +p .38 is too much for my 442. I can handle the recoil, but it's just too harsh on the aluminum frame IMO. It is better suited to be shot in a .357 Mag.
I personally like the old standby Rem. 158 gr. +p LHPSWC as it goes a tad over 800 fps in a snubby, is very controllable, accurate & the lead is softer than a Liberal's heart thereby insuring expansion (usually).
You're the one that made the assertion that the JHPs are
better than any WC load so the burden of proof is on you.
Proof is a pretty strong word, so unless you know of real
evidence derived from actual shootings of animals or people
under controlled conditions then you don't have "proof". So
making flat out statements without real data to back them
up means the one flapping their jaws is ...you pal. If not
why don't you put your proof on here for others to see
instead of just coming back with another smarta** remark?
Moonman
Member
The FULL wadcutter can do the job.
Hard-cast, Controllable, Shot placement is king.
Put a vest on and stand in front of DEWC about 750 FPS.
Now imagine bleeding from about 5 different hits.
The Buffalo Bore is a nice round, but too much to handle for many people in the snubby.
Hard-cast, Controllable, Shot placement is king.
Put a vest on and stand in front of DEWC about 750 FPS.
Now imagine bleeding from about 5 different hits.
The Buffalo Bore is a nice round, but too much to handle for many people in the snubby.
OP
Waywatcher
Member
Actually, we are discussing wadcutters here. My numbers are correct.
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Yikes - lots of new "experts" out there. Just carry what you're are comfortable with, given your gun and it's probable use. Personally, the first two out of my home defense revolvers are 140 gr full wadcutters, just because they are controllable if my wife is using the gun, and won't go through my house and the neighbors if she misses. I spent 27 years on a major PD with about 2000 officers and no one was EVER happy with whichever caliber and load the city provided. During that time I investigated about 100 officer involved shootings and well over 1000 homicides, and about 95% were with plain old lead bullets. I'm not saying HV/HP's aren't better, but SHOT PLACEMENT is still the deciding factor. Again - carry what YOU are comfortable with.
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Life's too short for schoolyard bickering. I'm out.
Groo01
Member
Groo here
What few remember is that when the jhp bullets first came out,[supervel]
one of the biggest selling points was reduced ricochet ,bounce back,
and over penetration.
The "stopping power" aka "slap " as Keith would say, is generated
not by the damage inside but by the pain on the outside.
The modern HP has a wound like a hunting bullet , the game may run
off but die quickly.
What we want is just the opposit.
We want the target to STOP,,, the die quickly part dose us little good in a fight.
A stop is generated by the stopping of the computer, by damage or
input [ aka pain]
Bleeding / shock can take between 8 to 30 seconds or more.
The pain is in the skin first then muscle , internal organs least and last.
This is why a large flat on the nose of a bullet , a larger buller, or
a jhp that opens very fast like the 125gr 357 with a lot of lead at the tip
work so well.
The nose does all the work as keith says, the physical impact that stuns
the target.
The hole in the organs keeps the game from running too far.
What few remember is that when the jhp bullets first came out,[supervel]
one of the biggest selling points was reduced ricochet ,bounce back,
and over penetration.
The "stopping power" aka "slap " as Keith would say, is generated
not by the damage inside but by the pain on the outside.
The modern HP has a wound like a hunting bullet , the game may run
off but die quickly.
What we want is just the opposit.
We want the target to STOP,,, the die quickly part dose us little good in a fight.
A stop is generated by the stopping of the computer, by damage or
input [ aka pain]
Bleeding / shock can take between 8 to 30 seconds or more.
The pain is in the skin first then muscle , internal organs least and last.
This is why a large flat on the nose of a bullet , a larger buller, or
a jhp that opens very fast like the 125gr 357 with a lot of lead at the tip
work so well.
The nose does all the work as keith says, the physical impact that stuns
the target.
The hole in the organs keeps the game from running too far.
All those hot loads and +P bullets fling around are nice if you have a weapon that is rated for +P ammo or was made after 1990 and has a frame hardness of Rc80 or more...........
but for those of us that have pre 90's weapons with frames of "Softer metal" that was not heat treated or updated to the "Magnum frame"..............
we are limited to our choice of ammo and its velocity and energy, to not do any damage to our weapons made of weaker steel or even the old "Air-weights" styles made back then.
Most 110 and 125gr Jhp at modest SD speeds will work but they will only get around 210 ft/lbs of energy and penetrate only 12" maximum if everything works correctly. The 110gr usually only chimes in at 9-10" on a good day..... except for the Hornady CD.
The heavier 148 and 158gr lead bullets need to be kept at a PF of under 114 to keep recoil down from +P levels which makes the 148gr at 775 fps and the 158gr at 720 fps in my weapons.
Some of my test had quality Jhp bullets not opening up at 38 special top speeds in my best loads, which was not a good thing..........
That left me with the 148 and 158 LEAD bullets.
A HBwc148gr bullet loaded backwards is not going to mushroom at only 775 fps, eight feet from the muzzle in my mind, so I would think the standard loading of this bullet or a BBwc is the only real option at hand. You can try the 158gr HP but the SWC design is a good option if you don't have any of the "FBI" bullets on hand.
A test of which bullet impacts as close to where you are aiming would be my #1 concern.......... with recoil and repeated shots on target also coming into play.
It just boils down to what ammo you think is the best for you and your weapon if you ever need to use it for your protection.
If you are not happy with the results the only thing to do is go out and buy a Larger frame gun that can take the heavier SD loads, if you think it is needed.
Stay safe.
but for those of us that have pre 90's weapons with frames of "Softer metal" that was not heat treated or updated to the "Magnum frame"..............
we are limited to our choice of ammo and its velocity and energy, to not do any damage to our weapons made of weaker steel or even the old "Air-weights" styles made back then.
Most 110 and 125gr Jhp at modest SD speeds will work but they will only get around 210 ft/lbs of energy and penetrate only 12" maximum if everything works correctly. The 110gr usually only chimes in at 9-10" on a good day..... except for the Hornady CD.
The heavier 148 and 158gr lead bullets need to be kept at a PF of under 114 to keep recoil down from +P levels which makes the 148gr at 775 fps and the 158gr at 720 fps in my weapons.
Some of my test had quality Jhp bullets not opening up at 38 special top speeds in my best loads, which was not a good thing..........
That left me with the 148 and 158 LEAD bullets.
A HBwc148gr bullet loaded backwards is not going to mushroom at only 775 fps, eight feet from the muzzle in my mind, so I would think the standard loading of this bullet or a BBwc is the only real option at hand. You can try the 158gr HP but the SWC design is a good option if you don't have any of the "FBI" bullets on hand.
A test of which bullet impacts as close to where you are aiming would be my #1 concern.......... with recoil and repeated shots on target also coming into play.
It just boils down to what ammo you think is the best for you and your weapon if you ever need to use it for your protection.
If you are not happy with the results the only thing to do is go out and buy a Larger frame gun that can take the heavier SD loads, if you think it is needed.
Stay safe.
hangnoose
Member
WADCUTTERS FOR S/D
Too many people watching u-tube videos & believing anything written in the gun rags by people paid to hype their products. In my limited exp of GSW'S in people & animals, sorry NO BALISTIC GEL, all I can come up with is that GSW's are unpredictable at best. They go in one place & travel/come out in most unexpected places quite often. People/animals survive that you thought would surely die, and people/animals die you thought would surely live. At real self defense ranges, which may be from pressing the bbl into someone's body (a big + for revolvers), to say 25' a well placed shot from a 22lr & up can kill. Spending big $ on the latest/greatest that you can't afford to practice with (and we ALL have some) is not practical nor make sense to me. I FULLY AGREE a miss is the ultimate over penetrator. I have yet to hear anyone shot by any caliber say "oh that tickled, shoot me again". Having both an airwt J frame and an all steel 640 no dash the 640 can produce some accuracy (small groups) I never thought possible. It's just that the small groups from the (popular hyped type bullets) might be a foot away from my point of aim, where as a 158gr dewc with 2.7 gr's of bulleye is normally right on the money. We recently had a J frame day at our weekly steel challenge shoot & the wad cutters provided SUBSTANCIALY higher hits than the jacketed ammo. NO we normally don't allow jhp's to be shot, due to ricochet's. With my hand issues and being by far the slowest shooter there, accuracy MAYBE slightly above average, I was the only one able to hit all 5 plates at least in 3 of 5 runs in app 6.5 +/- seconds. If you can shoot Lawmans/Buffalo bore jhp's/ Hydrashok's, whatever better than wad cutters, feel free. At hands on distances I doubt the outcome will matter much. ALL YOU swat team & seal team 6 members not withstanding. My only real concern with wad cutters would be after the shoot courtroom ramifications for using reloads, of ANY TYPE.
Too many people watching u-tube videos & believing anything written in the gun rags by people paid to hype their products. In my limited exp of GSW'S in people & animals, sorry NO BALISTIC GEL, all I can come up with is that GSW's are unpredictable at best. They go in one place & travel/come out in most unexpected places quite often. People/animals survive that you thought would surely die, and people/animals die you thought would surely live. At real self defense ranges, which may be from pressing the bbl into someone's body (a big + for revolvers), to say 25' a well placed shot from a 22lr & up can kill. Spending big $ on the latest/greatest that you can't afford to practice with (and we ALL have some) is not practical nor make sense to me. I FULLY AGREE a miss is the ultimate over penetrator. I have yet to hear anyone shot by any caliber say "oh that tickled, shoot me again". Having both an airwt J frame and an all steel 640 no dash the 640 can produce some accuracy (small groups) I never thought possible. It's just that the small groups from the (popular hyped type bullets) might be a foot away from my point of aim, where as a 158gr dewc with 2.7 gr's of bulleye is normally right on the money. We recently had a J frame day at our weekly steel challenge shoot & the wad cutters provided SUBSTANCIALY higher hits than the jacketed ammo. NO we normally don't allow jhp's to be shot, due to ricochet's. With my hand issues and being by far the slowest shooter there, accuracy MAYBE slightly above average, I was the only one able to hit all 5 plates at least in 3 of 5 runs in app 6.5 +/- seconds. If you can shoot Lawmans/Buffalo bore jhp's/ Hydrashok's, whatever better than wad cutters, feel free. At hands on distances I doubt the outcome will matter much. ALL YOU swat team & seal team 6 members not withstanding. My only real concern with wad cutters would be after the shoot courtroom ramifications for using reloads, of ANY TYPE.
gwpercle
Member
The key words in your post are "accurate and controllable". 150 gr. wadcutter @ 725 fps will do fine. Hits win the day. Much better to have a 725 fps load you can hit with than some magnum or +P that you can't. My grandfather did all his wild hog hunting with a 22 rifle, told me "boy it's not what you shoot them with, it's where you shoot them that counts" I watched that old man kill every hog he shot at with one well placed head shot! He would put that bullet right through the ear opening and into the brain. They all dropped dead.
Stick with what you can shoot accurately with, that load will work.
Stick with what you can shoot accurately with, that load will work.
M E Morrison
Member
Pigirondan
Member
My handgun journey started with a .38 Special shooting wadcutters over 40 years ago. Now I'm back where I started.
Pigirondan
Member
As an aside, I've gone to using 225 grain .45 auto rim wadcutters in my N-frame.
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