Dunno. Here's the box and round image for the +P version.
.38 Special: Best Wadcutter For Self-Defense ...
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StrawHat
Member
Here is Ed Harris' view on the full charged wadcutter,
Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com
Kevin
Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com
Kevin
The Kid
Member
Not all wadcutters are created equal.
At a place I used to work we found ourselves neck deep in Fiocchi 148gr wadcutter target ammo. It was ridiculously accurate stuff and a pleasure to shoot out of any 38. The sales manager recommended it often to purchasers of J frames for carry or nightstand ammo.
Having killed a pile of animals with lead bullets in handguns at modest velocities and knowing what a big flat nose is capable of, I agreed with his recommendation. Until one afternoon as we were having an informal shooting match in the back of the shop and I noticed that I could easily see these wadcutters in flight. Not a big deal, you can see 230gr Hardball out of a full size 1911 if you get the light just right. We then discovered that the soft wadcutters even at their low velocity would rivet and expand and give zero penetration on a sheet of 3/8" rubber conveyor belt we covered the bullet trap with, not confidence inspiring.
A little research showed nearly the same performance from other brands of match wadcutter ammo.
But having experience as stated above with killing animals up to half a ton with revolver and auto pistol cartridges, almost exclusively using cast bullets, I knew the wadcutter shape was good the issue was with the butter soft swaged bullets at very pedestrian velocities.
I have since found through experience that a cast, as opposed to swage, wadcutter and they needn't be overly hard. Loaded to just standard 38 speeds produced by the standard 158RN, is a pretty impressive performer. They will give better penetration than any HP that actually opens, a winter coat isn't stopping one. And they will give the best possible wound channel of a non expanding bullet. They probably aren't going to be impressive shooting through the side of a car but nothing else you load in your Chief Special is either.
Bullets cast from wheel weights in an H&G 50 mold and loaded over 5gr of Unique, 5.5gr Power Pistol, or 4gr of W231 are a good place to be.
At a place I used to work we found ourselves neck deep in Fiocchi 148gr wadcutter target ammo. It was ridiculously accurate stuff and a pleasure to shoot out of any 38. The sales manager recommended it often to purchasers of J frames for carry or nightstand ammo.
Having killed a pile of animals with lead bullets in handguns at modest velocities and knowing what a big flat nose is capable of, I agreed with his recommendation. Until one afternoon as we were having an informal shooting match in the back of the shop and I noticed that I could easily see these wadcutters in flight. Not a big deal, you can see 230gr Hardball out of a full size 1911 if you get the light just right. We then discovered that the soft wadcutters even at their low velocity would rivet and expand and give zero penetration on a sheet of 3/8" rubber conveyor belt we covered the bullet trap with, not confidence inspiring.
A little research showed nearly the same performance from other brands of match wadcutter ammo.
But having experience as stated above with killing animals up to half a ton with revolver and auto pistol cartridges, almost exclusively using cast bullets, I knew the wadcutter shape was good the issue was with the butter soft swaged bullets at very pedestrian velocities.
I have since found through experience that a cast, as opposed to swage, wadcutter and they needn't be overly hard. Loaded to just standard 38 speeds produced by the standard 158RN, is a pretty impressive performer. They will give better penetration than any HP that actually opens, a winter coat isn't stopping one. And they will give the best possible wound channel of a non expanding bullet. They probably aren't going to be impressive shooting through the side of a car but nothing else you load in your Chief Special is either.
Bullets cast from wheel weights in an H&G 50 mold and loaded over 5gr of Unique, 5.5gr Power Pistol, or 4gr of W231 are a good place to be.
Model19man
Member
I looked and could not see Ed Harris article date.
Many years ago, I experimented with the 148 HBWC loaded backward over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. Out of a 4", Model 19, from about five yards or so, they'd make a hole in a bank of red Virginia clay that I could shove my fist into. It was pretty impressive actually.
I was ready if I was ever attacked by a bank of red Virginia clay.
I never carried them of course. Back then you had to know somebody, who knew somebody, who knew someone else to get a carry permit. I didn't know anybody. I had one box of 357 ammo I'd bought that I loaded the revolver with for "home defense" but never actually fired any of them. Too expensive to replace.
I was ready if I was ever attacked by a bank of red Virginia clay.
I never carried them of course. Back then you had to know somebody, who knew somebody, who knew someone else to get a carry permit. I didn't know anybody. I had one box of 357 ammo I'd bought that I loaded the revolver with for "home defense" but never actually fired any of them. Too expensive to replace.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
That was back in 1979 and it is sad that he was just a rookie cop. Bad guy was taken down by Florida Highway Patrol.
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SGT ROCK 11B
Member
My question would be, "do you actually go shooting?"
A senior friend of mine got himself a 38 snubby recently because he actually went to shoot his 380 ACP pistol but it jammed on every shot. So he decided to retire the 380 ACP and get himself a 38 snubby. He bought WWB 130 grain because that is what the clerk sold him.
A senior friend of mine got himself a 38 snubby recently because he actually went to shoot his 380 ACP pistol but it jammed on every shot. So he decided to retire the 380 ACP and get himself a 38 snubby. He bought WWB 130 grain because that is what the clerk sold him.
Here's a pic...
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38SPL HV
Member
I load hard cast 148 gr DEWC over 3.3 grs W231 and use in my 1 7/8 inch S&W Airweight. 693 FPS avg. Accurate and penetrates adequately. I had used 3.5 grs Bullseye with same bullet for a full wadcutter load but without Bullseye on the shelf nowadays I've replaced this load using 4.0 grs W231 under a generic cast 158 gr SWC…this one averages 743 fps and shoots to sights with adequate power.
You have options when reloading and it's fun to boot.
You have options when reloading and it's fun to boot.
crstrode
Member
Hard cast 148 DEWC over 4.5 to 5 grains of Unique will prove out around 900 FPS from a 2-inch snubby. I carry a load like that daily.
I've dug WCs that still look reloadable outta the dirt after punching clear through a 6-inch hardwood post .
A feeble human torso (or two) would be no match for this load.
I've dug WCs that still look reloadable outta the dirt after punching clear through a 6-inch hardwood post .
A feeble human torso (or two) would be no match for this load.
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gwpercle
Member
Cast of a 50/50 mix clip on wheel-weights & lead .
NOE 360-160-WC PB (360432)
This is Lyman # 358432 - 160 gr. which is now discontinued
but NOE replicates it nicely !
Sized .358" and lubed with Lithi-Bee bullet lube .
Over 5.0 grains Unique - max. standard pressure load.
or 5.2 grains Unique - +P Loading .
These loads are accurate and what stays in my J and K frame revolvers .
The 358432 / 360432 wadcutter design is a winner in the accuracy dept and the flat WC hits hard ..! Try it sometimes ... You will Like it !
Gary
NOE 360-160-WC PB (360432)
This is Lyman # 358432 - 160 gr. which is now discontinued
but NOE replicates it nicely !
Sized .358" and lubed with Lithi-Bee bullet lube .
Over 5.0 grains Unique - max. standard pressure load.
or 5.2 grains Unique - +P Loading .
These loads are accurate and what stays in my J and K frame revolvers .
The 358432 / 360432 wadcutter design is a winner in the accuracy dept and the flat WC hits hard ..! Try it sometimes ... You will Like it !
Gary
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I like them. A lot. But my favorites I have to cast myself.
The Ideal/Lyman 358432 is designed to seat out of the case. At 159gr as cast you can just load them the same as you do a SWC. I use 4.0gr of W231 which is the same thing I load in the SWC.
Then there's the Lee 410-208-WC, a .41 magnum full wadcutter which in the .41 Magnum you can load hotter than you'd probably care to shoot.
Here's the 358432 next to a standard 150gr SWC:
This is an as cast 358432 with a .41 wadcutter on either side:
The Ideal/Lyman 358432 is designed to seat out of the case. At 159gr as cast you can just load them the same as you do a SWC. I use 4.0gr of W231 which is the same thing I load in the SWC.
Then there's the Lee 410-208-WC, a .41 magnum full wadcutter which in the .41 Magnum you can load hotter than you'd probably care to shoot.
Here's the 358432 next to a standard 150gr SWC:
This is an as cast 358432 with a .41 wadcutter on either side:
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No experience shooting people with Wad Cutters. But can tell you the Lyman Button Nose WC 242gr. 45 cal. cruzing along at 800fps with make a 150lb. deer sick to death. Lowers blood pressure quick. WCs make up 90% of my shooting in 38sp, 44sp, 45Colt & 45acp. I like the Button Nose but have DEWC & HBWC molds. I use Hornady HBWC in 52s.
I've loaded HBWCs backwards but never shot anything except groundhog for test, I think that's over rated. Pouring HBWCs out of a single cavity mold is like trying to survive on black walnuts. Eventually you succumb
to fatigue trying to keep up.
I've loaded HBWCs backwards but never shot anything except groundhog for test, I think that's over rated. Pouring HBWCs out of a single cavity mold is like trying to survive on black walnuts. Eventually you succumb
to fatigue trying to keep up.
Alk8944
US Veteran
Then use standard mid-range for practice and the Underwood and Buffalo bore when carrying the gun for self-defense That is what they are intended for! Velocity and energy are always a positive thing for that purpose.
Low recoil should not be a primary consideration for self-defense ammunition! Bullet energy, effectiveness and dependability should be!
(I hope someone else thought of this earlier in this thread!)
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gwpercle
Member
Cast wadcutters are the epitome of the new Wide Flat Nose (WFN)
design movement in lead bullets ...
They don't get any wider or flatter than a Wadcutter .
In handguns ...cCast to a semi-hard 9 bhn ...They hit hard when loaded to standard / high velocity and are accurate at those velocities out to 25 yards . Just fine for self-defense .
My 38 Special stays loaded with Lyman / Noe #358432 wadcutters !
Gary
design movement in lead bullets ...
They don't get any wider or flatter than a Wadcutter .
In handguns ...cCast to a semi-hard 9 bhn ...They hit hard when loaded to standard / high velocity and are accurate at those velocities out to 25 yards . Just fine for self-defense .
My 38 Special stays loaded with Lyman / Noe #358432 wadcutters !
Gary
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