The 4566TSWSSV project
- Thread starter BMCM
- Start date
nocents
Member
Fantastic result....really love the look of the final finish of the frame and rework of the beaver tail.......but the grip checkering is my favorite upgrade.......since I don't have any dustcover holes to contend with
boingboing
Member
So when can I send you mine?
OP
Thank you for all the kind words and compliments guys, I truly appreciate them.
So, I spent most of this afternoon sorting out the heavy gritty DA trigger problem and thought I'd share my finding and the results.
But, before we get to that. Remember yesterday I mentioned how that first hammer I had installed last night would drop too early in DA?
Well, here's why. have a close look at the DA hooks I have circled in the picture. Someone did some serious remodeling here with a file or stone I suspect. Note that the angles aren't even the same on both hooks. During the DA pull, the drawbar could barely hang on long enough to get the hammer out of the slide recess. Other than the hooks, this hammer is in near perfect condition, damn shame too because unfortunately it's junk. I should have noticed this before installing it. Oh well, lesson learned
Now compare those buggered up DA hooks above to these on a blued forged hammer.
And here on this used MIM hammer.
Quite the difference yes? Note the included radius and how the hooks have a much steeper angle to keep the drawbar engaged through a full stroke of the trigger. There's no reason to ever take a file or stone to this area.
Just thought to pass on what I found in case any of you find yourselves rummaging in a parts bin some day
Ok, Enough of that, on to the crunchy gritty trigger fix.
So last night I had noted the trigger was a little crunchy with the bad hammer and became somewhat worse after I swapped in another hammer.
Today, after stripping and re-assembling the frame a number of times while making adjustments and part swaps in between. I identified three problem areas that combined to make the trigger lousy.
First was the little sawtooth feature on the hammer sturrup which added some clunkyness as the mainspring rode against it.
Fixed that with a #3 cut barrette file.
Next was some roughness and casting flaws on the upper surface of the drawbar that tended to rub against the frame here.
Fixed that by gently deburring & polishing the guilty area on the drawbar using that same barrette file and an extra fine cratex point.
Lastly was the radius on the hammer where it rides against the sear during the DA pull.
That chrome/forged hammer over on the left is the one with the ruined DA hooks, pretty smooth where it rides against the sear. The one I swapped in (second from left) definitely had the spoon on a cheese grater effect
. The blued forged not much better.
In the end, the fix was to forgo trying to salvage used forged parts and make them work. I went ahead and installed a set of new MIM components, hammer, trigger & sear which had briefly been in my other 4566.
Now the trigger feel is just perfect. Second only to my other 4566TSW which coincidentally doesn't have a single molecule of MIM on it. Go figure
Silky smooth throughout the DA pull and a nice crisp SA release close to the back wall.
So here she is all back together with some new bits.
And I'll just sit here dry-snapping at bugs on the windows attracted by the porch lights and look forward to Saturday when We'll go for a serious test drive.
Hey, anyone in my neck of the woods? Meet me at the Concordia Parish SO range about 10am, I'll let ya take her for a spin
Cheers
Bill
So, I spent most of this afternoon sorting out the heavy gritty DA trigger problem and thought I'd share my finding and the results.
But, before we get to that. Remember yesterday I mentioned how that first hammer I had installed last night would drop too early in DA?
Well, here's why. have a close look at the DA hooks I have circled in the picture. Someone did some serious remodeling here with a file or stone I suspect. Note that the angles aren't even the same on both hooks. During the DA pull, the drawbar could barely hang on long enough to get the hammer out of the slide recess. Other than the hooks, this hammer is in near perfect condition, damn shame too because unfortunately it's junk. I should have noticed this before installing it. Oh well, lesson learned
Now compare those buggered up DA hooks above to these on a blued forged hammer.
And here on this used MIM hammer.
Quite the difference yes? Note the included radius and how the hooks have a much steeper angle to keep the drawbar engaged through a full stroke of the trigger. There's no reason to ever take a file or stone to this area.
Just thought to pass on what I found in case any of you find yourselves rummaging in a parts bin some day
Ok, Enough of that, on to the crunchy gritty trigger fix.
So last night I had noted the trigger was a little crunchy with the bad hammer and became somewhat worse after I swapped in another hammer.
Today, after stripping and re-assembling the frame a number of times while making adjustments and part swaps in between. I identified three problem areas that combined to make the trigger lousy.
First was the little sawtooth feature on the hammer sturrup which added some clunkyness as the mainspring rode against it.
Fixed that with a #3 cut barrette file.
Next was some roughness and casting flaws on the upper surface of the drawbar that tended to rub against the frame here.
Fixed that by gently deburring & polishing the guilty area on the drawbar using that same barrette file and an extra fine cratex point.
Lastly was the radius on the hammer where it rides against the sear during the DA pull.
That chrome/forged hammer over on the left is the one with the ruined DA hooks, pretty smooth where it rides against the sear. The one I swapped in (second from left) definitely had the spoon on a cheese grater effect
. The blued forged not much better.In the end, the fix was to forgo trying to salvage used forged parts and make them work. I went ahead and installed a set of new MIM components, hammer, trigger & sear which had briefly been in my other 4566.
Now the trigger feel is just perfect. Second only to my other 4566TSW which coincidentally doesn't have a single molecule of MIM on it. Go figure
Silky smooth throughout the DA pull and a nice crisp SA release close to the back wall.So here she is all back together with some new bits.
And I'll just sit here dry-snapping at bugs on the windows attracted by the porch lights and look forward to Saturday when We'll go for a serious test drive.
Hey, anyone in my neck of the woods? Meet me at the Concordia Parish SO range about 10am, I'll let ya take her for a spin
Cheers
Bill
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nocents
Member
Hey, anyone in my neck of the woods? Meet me at the Concordia Parish SO range about 10am, I'll let ya take her for a spin
Cheers
Bill
WOW......only thing that comes to mind is..... ROAD TRIP!!!!!...
.....and......if at some point in the future that you list it in the "guns for sale" section..... I want to be first in line with the "I'll take it"
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4506517
Member
Sweeeeeeeeet!
Once again your skill and style amaze me.
Outstanding work.
You are the most gifted 3rd gen smith I've ever seen.
Once again your skill and style amaze me.
Outstanding work.
You are the most gifted 3rd gen smith I've ever seen.
ShelbyV8
Member
I have also found a little grittiness between the internal decocking lever and the drawbar at times. A quick pass with a fine stone on both surfaces takes this out. Beautiful Work.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
OP
Looks excellent Bill. So...now that you've about wrapped that one up, you're ready for me to ship you my 4566TSW, right?
Not just yet Fellas... I'm working on it.
Cheers
Bill
Dang it.. wish I lived closer. Would love to see that in person.
Thank you Bill for this wonderful thread. I've learned a lot about the 3rd gen Smith's.
You've done an awesome job.
OP
(Don't know what "swarf" is but let's keep makin' it!
It's this stuff, I made some more today
Cheers
Bill
vigil617
US Veteran
It's this stuff, I made some more today
Cheers
Bill
Then, to paraphrase Oddball in Kelly's Heroes, "Swarf, swarf, swarf, swarf!"
Kelly's Heroes Oddball Takes a Rest - YouTube
OP
Off to the range last Saturday With the SSV and the PC4506.
Didn't expend but a couple mags on the 4506. Once it became apparent it was gonna chew a hole in my hand I put it up. never did see the logic behind a spurred hammer on a TDA pistol anyway. I see a bobbed hammer in the near future
Just for the record, I was shooting all standard pressure loads, mostly 230gr ball and 185gr mid-range wadcutters. No reloads, all factory stuff. With one exception, I tossed 5 rounds of +p RA45T downrange early on with no problems.
Ran about 150 rounds through the SSV. Still have a couple bugs to work out although I certainly can't complain about the accuracy. This was the first magazine I fired, 8rds @ 10 yards.
Yeah, I was wearin' a big ol' grin.
Nice group but a little off the mark and absent minded me forgot to bring a screwdriver. No worries, I'll regulate the sights next Saturday.
Good consistent ejection all day plopping the brass down at three o'clock about 5 feet off. While shooting I had thought to myself "Gee, I could probably stick a 5 gallon bucket right there and save myself from policing up brass all over the place".
A problem arose after about 100 or so rounds. I had started dipping into my junk ammo bucket and shot some old nasty ball ammo. After the second mag I started to see FTE's, failure to extract that is. So back to the ranch for some post-fire analysis.
Looking things over afterwards I've narrowed the source down to a possible flaw in the barrel's chamber. I see what appears to be a concavity in the chamber in these areas outlined in red.
It's difficult to capture this with a camera. Compare that previous picture to this one of the same barrel. Note the shadowed area denoting this spot is not at the same uniform level as the surrounding chamber surface. When I stripped everything down for inspection I noted a buildup of carbon and some unburnt powder flakes stubbornly stuck to this spot. Aside from this apparent defect, this chamber also measures slightly oversize beyond SAAMI specifications.
Here another barrel on which I just cut the loader chamber port into and will shoot next Saturday. Note how the chamber surface appears completely uniform. And this one measures in accordance with the SAAMI specs.
I suspect junk built up in that flaw caused the cases to tend to stick and in turn the extractor overrode the case rim.
I didn't see any tearout of case rims but could identify the gouge right were the extractor was pulled over the rim on several cases.
I've also noted some very slight bulging in some cases at the same chamber depth and clocking as the suspect chamber defect.
So here's the plan.
First, bring a screwdriver so I can regulate the sights
Since I'm not inclined to be driving out extractor pins at the range, and just to rule that, out I've installed a brand new extractor & spring.
Not sure If I'm going to shoot the suspect barrel or not. Considering the bulging I saw I'm not inclined to. So in with the backup barrel and back to the range next Saturday and we'll take her out for another spin.
Ya know, I only picked that barrel cuz it was the prettiest one
We'll that was then, this is now. Eh, somebody said I shoulda polished it anyway
And here's another odd thing.... As a rule, I don't like the curved grips. I much prefer the straight grips on all my guns as they just feel right to me. Well not on this gun. I don't know why nor do I really care why for that matter, but this gun is just the opposite. The straight grip feels wrong and the curved grip is just wow! Must be a balance or gravity/mass+momentum thingy
Anyway, looks pretty good all curvy and such.
And goes well with this old stock DeSantis 97 I had layin' about.
Range report Volume II next weekend... Out!
Cheers
Bill
Didn't expend but a couple mags on the 4506. Once it became apparent it was gonna chew a hole in my hand I put it up. never did see the logic behind a spurred hammer on a TDA pistol anyway. I see a bobbed hammer in the near future
Just for the record, I was shooting all standard pressure loads, mostly 230gr ball and 185gr mid-range wadcutters. No reloads, all factory stuff. With one exception, I tossed 5 rounds of +p RA45T downrange early on with no problems.
Ran about 150 rounds through the SSV. Still have a couple bugs to work out although I certainly can't complain about the accuracy. This was the first magazine I fired, 8rds @ 10 yards.
Yeah, I was wearin' a big ol' grin.
Nice group but a little off the mark and absent minded me forgot to bring a screwdriver. No worries, I'll regulate the sights next Saturday.
Good consistent ejection all day plopping the brass down at three o'clock about 5 feet off. While shooting I had thought to myself "Gee, I could probably stick a 5 gallon bucket right there and save myself from policing up brass all over the place".
A problem arose after about 100 or so rounds. I had started dipping into my junk ammo bucket and shot some old nasty ball ammo. After the second mag I started to see FTE's, failure to extract that is. So back to the ranch for some post-fire analysis.
Looking things over afterwards I've narrowed the source down to a possible flaw in the barrel's chamber. I see what appears to be a concavity in the chamber in these areas outlined in red.
It's difficult to capture this with a camera. Compare that previous picture to this one of the same barrel. Note the shadowed area denoting this spot is not at the same uniform level as the surrounding chamber surface. When I stripped everything down for inspection I noted a buildup of carbon and some unburnt powder flakes stubbornly stuck to this spot. Aside from this apparent defect, this chamber also measures slightly oversize beyond SAAMI specifications.
Here another barrel on which I just cut the loader chamber port into and will shoot next Saturday. Note how the chamber surface appears completely uniform. And this one measures in accordance with the SAAMI specs.
I suspect junk built up in that flaw caused the cases to tend to stick and in turn the extractor overrode the case rim.
I didn't see any tearout of case rims but could identify the gouge right were the extractor was pulled over the rim on several cases.
I've also noted some very slight bulging in some cases at the same chamber depth and clocking as the suspect chamber defect.
So here's the plan.
First, bring a screwdriver so I can regulate the sights
Since I'm not inclined to be driving out extractor pins at the range, and just to rule that, out I've installed a brand new extractor & spring.
Not sure If I'm going to shoot the suspect barrel or not. Considering the bulging I saw I'm not inclined to. So in with the backup barrel and back to the range next Saturday and we'll take her out for another spin.
Ya know, I only picked that barrel cuz it was the prettiest one
We'll that was then, this is now. Eh, somebody said I shoulda polished it anyway
And here's another odd thing.... As a rule, I don't like the curved grips. I much prefer the straight grips on all my guns as they just feel right to me. Well not on this gun. I don't know why nor do I really care why for that matter, but this gun is just the opposite. The straight grip feels wrong and the curved grip is just wow! Must be a balance or gravity/mass+momentum thingy
Anyway, looks pretty good all curvy and such.
And goes well with this old stock DeSantis 97 I had layin' about.
Range report Volume II next weekend... Out!
Cheers
Bill
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03Fatboy
Member
Booking my ticket now as I type. Any favorable places to stay or see while in town???
Fantastic as usual Bill!
Fantastic as usual Bill!
nocents
Member
And goes well with this old stock DeSantis 97 I had layin' about.
Range report Volume II next weekend... Out!
Cheers
Bill
really.....all I want is some checkering like that on my 4506-1
vigil617
US Veteran
What's your take on the chamber discrepancies in that first barrel, Master Chief? Factory defect? Or did it come later, with a lot of shooting? Steel case ammo? Just curious.....
OP
I don't believe this had anything to do with shooting. Nor does it look like the work of a Dremel tool.
Now I don't know what the manufacturing steps were when this barrel was made. Whether the chamber was finish reamed by hand or by machine.
I do know what the SAMMI chamber dimensions are supposed to be though... starting .200" from the breechface it should measure .4796" and taper evenly to .4744" at the shoulder where the cartridge headspaces.
The is purely speculation on my part but, here's what I think happened here. This was the work of a finish reamer operator. while turning the reamer in the chamber, either wasn't clearing the chips, chipped the tool or got some trash caught up in it, and gouged two annular grooves that cover about 120° of the chamber's diameter. Looks like there may have been some effort to polish them out which only really made the problem worse by taking the chamber dimensions further out of spec. Could have just been some bloke messing with a reamer or could just as easily been Monday morning at the factory that got past QC, there's just no telling.
I only noticed this while examining stuff under a jeweler's loupe. When it caught the light just right and I thought "hold on! what's this?". I could actually feel the dent when rubbing small wood dowel over the spot. I then went back and examined my brass more closely and found the matching bulge. Ah Hah! says I.
Another lesson learned I say. Clearly I need to be more detailed & discriminating in examining my parts I get from the used aftermarket.
I'm just glad I didn't have a head separation or rupture last Saturday
Cheers
Bill
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nocents
Member
How do the rest of "us" mere mortals figure this stuff out??
vigil617
US Veteran
Sounds like something that could happen, or if the tool geometry on the tapered finish-reamer was squirrelly. Might also make the chamber out of round in addition to being oversized. That barrel probably should have been tossed at that time, but I bet the operator thought the chances of an end user having a jeweler's loupe and a machinist's eye were pretty small, so "what the hey."
OP
Range report Vol II...
Yeah, remember that part of the plan where I'm supposed to bring a screwdriver? Ha!
Well no matter, I ordered a different front sight anyway. I don't want to jack the rear up too high getting it dialed in so I'm changing the front from a .233 tall to a .217 tall. The new part should be here in a week or so then I'll head to the range and regulate the sights properly.
So how did it shoot you might wonder? In a word, perfect!
Ran about a 100 rounds of mixed factory stuff mostly TZZ through Saturday. Not a single malfunction, Fired brass looks good with no telltale one o'clock bulge. Accuracy is spot on despite the barrel change, tosses those fat slugs in the same hole one after another with boring regularity. Clean positive ejection at three to four o'clock. Man, I couldn't be happier. This thing is just a pleasure to shoot. Something 18DAI said a while back in one of his threads that stuck in my brain definitely applies here, "it POINTS!" Yessir it certainly does very nice balance and fast!
I did make a couple minor edits yesterday. Having noted a tiny rough spot at the start of the DA pull, I took the hammer out and stoned the radius above the hammer hooks where the sear contacts. Trigger is scary smooth now. And thanks to fastbolt's superior guidance, I was able to adjust the sear release lever to be spot on right at the upper limit of the factory spec, so de-cock function should last a good long time. before needing further adjustment.
You know I now definitely see the appeal of the 4596 here. Basically the same size as my 4516 except 3/8" taller. Carries just as easily, my xxl paws prefer the fullsize gripframe plus, there's no danger of pinching my pinky on speed reloads.
Not quite ready for primetime yet but, I can see now this piece is going to see a whole lot of holster time. My poor 4516 just might find itself in mothballs
Vol III after the new front sight goes on
Cheers
Bill
Yeah, remember that part of the plan where I'm supposed to bring a screwdriver? Ha!
Well no matter, I ordered a different front sight anyway. I don't want to jack the rear up too high getting it dialed in so I'm changing the front from a .233 tall to a .217 tall. The new part should be here in a week or so then I'll head to the range and regulate the sights properly.
So how did it shoot you might wonder? In a word, perfect!
Ran about a 100 rounds of mixed factory stuff mostly TZZ through Saturday. Not a single malfunction, Fired brass looks good with no telltale one o'clock bulge. Accuracy is spot on despite the barrel change, tosses those fat slugs in the same hole one after another with boring regularity. Clean positive ejection at three to four o'clock. Man, I couldn't be happier. This thing is just a pleasure to shoot. Something 18DAI said a while back in one of his threads that stuck in my brain definitely applies here, "it POINTS!" Yessir it certainly does
very nice balance and fast!I did make a couple minor edits yesterday. Having noted a tiny rough spot at the start of the DA pull, I took the hammer out and stoned the radius above the hammer hooks where the sear contacts. Trigger is scary smooth now. And thanks to fastbolt's superior guidance, I was able to adjust the sear release lever to be spot on right at the upper limit of the factory spec, so de-cock function should last a good long time. before needing further adjustment.
You know I now definitely see the appeal of the 4596 here. Basically the same size as my 4516 except 3/8" taller. Carries just as easily, my xxl paws prefer the fullsize gripframe plus, there's no danger of pinching my pinky on speed reloads.
Not quite ready for primetime yet but, I can see now this piece is going to see a whole lot of holster time. My poor 4516 just might find itself in mothballs
Vol III after the new front sight goes on
Cheers
Bill
