AR as a home defense gun?

[2hawk]

Check out some of the results of the "Box o' Truth" by "Old Painless".
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing

As OP likes to remind us "Rifles>Handguns", and I know I can hit faster and more accurately with a red-dot sighted AR than most any handgun I have. And to steal a line from Clint Smith, I have pistols handy so I can get to my rifle.

ETA Somewhere on the Thunder Ranch website, or maybe on one of Clint's videos, he has two men standing side by side in a shoot-house, one with a pistol held at high ready, one with an AR carbine shouldered. He points out that the muzzles of both guns are about the same distance from the body of the operators in that particular article, point being that he feels that it is not any harder to maneuver a carbine through a shoot-house than a pistol. I have no personal experience, so I won't try to claim any. But I know in a situation where I may be putting my life on the line, I want more gun, not less.

BTW, my personal go to HD weapon is a 10.5" bbl. AR with EoTech and suppressor. Don't want to be losing my hearing, y'know.
crappy cellphone pic, you get the idea:


Use what works best for you and your situation.

 

[JoseVazquez76]

Well here is my thing i find nothing wrong with an Ar-15 for home defense.This is subjective what it really comes down to is what your comfort level is with a certain firearm at any certain time.

Ill share what works very well for me i have 8 years and counting in the infantry 95% of my weapons training is with an M4 with an ACOG
so it was a natural choice to get one for personal use my current setup is very close to what i had in combat the only difference is that i have a 4-12 power scope. when my rifle is in the high ready i can scan and walk and move very well with the scope on 4 power.

There was no way in hell that i was going on house clearing missions with an Acog with one eye shut and the other open walking and scanning when it came time to clear rooms.

I am not justifying using a 4 power scope for home defense i'm just saying that is what works for me cause of my training. shooting without ear protection is the least of my problems when the time comes when you might have to take take a life.

 

[Tactical-ar]

My home defense is my bone stock m&p15 with irons bc in a breakin you might not think to turn on a powered optic, then my Taurus pt917 9mm then a ruger 380. Ar is the first thing I grab and I spent ten years in army with combat deployment so I'm very affective with it.

 

[cyphertext]

My home defense is my bone stock m&p15 with irons bc in a breakin you might not think to turn on a powered optic, then my Taurus pt917 9mm then a ruger 380. Ar is the first thing I grab and I spent ten years in army with combat deployment so I'm very affective with it.

If you are using an AR-15 with optics, you should probably look at something with long battery life, like Aimpoint. Something that the battery power can be measured in years, so that you can leave it on at all times.

 

[Rastoff]

Yeah, I love my EOTech, but if my AR were my home defense gun, I'd definitely go with an Aimpoint. Turn it on, mount to gun, sight in at the range, change batteries three years later. I do prefer the EOTech reticle, but the "always on" dot would be just fine.

My eyes are just too weak at this point to use irons reliably.

 

[WR Moore]

I have to go along with the idea that a handgun is the most versitile choice. Sound amplifing ear protection is indicated regardless of what firearm you choose.

Despite having used a short barreled shotgun for decades, it does have disadvantages for home defense: when used with proper ammunition (buckshot or slugs)* it readily penetrates walls with sufficent retained energy to cause serious bodily injury. It's long, heavy and has significant recoil: a 9 lb shotgun delivers 21.5 ft/lbs of recoil with full power ammunition, 18.5 ft/lbs with low recoil/tactical ammunition. Generally more affordable than the other choices and more acceptable to most jurors-if you don't buy out the tactical toy store.

By contrast, as noted, with proper ammunition 5.56mm/.223 ammo penetrates less building material than duty pistol ammunition. It's shorter and lighter than the shotgun, recoil is 3.5 ft/lbs and in Mforgery dress the stock length is instantly adjustable for large and small users. The negatives are price and the Evil Black Rifle perception should you end up in court. One counter to the EBR label is to find out if LLEA uses them and bring that (and why) out when their officers are on the stand.

* Box o Truth shows that even birdshot passes through drywall interior walls with enough retained velocity to potentially cause serious bodily injury/death. On the other hand, since we're trying to penetrate the rib cage, birdshot may not penetrate sufficiently unless the attacker is far closer than you want them to be. Remember, even with zero blood pressure, the body stores enough oxygen for at least 10 seconds of willfully directed activity. That's a lot of slicing and dicing if they started 10 feet away.

 

[JJEH]

AR SBR is a great choice for home defense. Depending on where you live the 16" barrel might be okay or not.

Over penetration is always a concern, no matter if rifle or handgun. Just train others to lay low until you give 'em the signal. That gives you the chance to shoot the intruder(s) at chest height.

It's always a pain and you should always have a plan B and C if things don't work out...

 

[2hawk]

Just a side note on my use of an EoTech on my AR- it's really not much time to turn it on. The drill is something like this: grab gun, charge, right thumb stabs button on optic 3-4 times to get it up to proper brightness, go to high ready or firing position.

I've used EoTech 512's for years now, and have had 3-4 units on different guns at different times. I've only had one that had battery corrosion issues, and replacement of the battery cover fixed that.

But, what non-users may not realize is that at HD ranges, you hardly need to turn on the unit at all. The sight is like a giant ghost ring when used in conjunction with the front sight, and is plenty good enough to make 10 ring hits at 10 yds or less. My house is small, roughly 30 by 40 feet, 1200 sq. ft. total, so having 100 yd accuracy is not required for my HD needs. And, I do a check on my battery powered optics on a regular basis, so I probably won't get caught with a dead optic. But plan B is in place, and I am confident of good results with it.

Now back to the subject at hand...

 

[bubbatime]

It has a tremendous chance of over-penetration. This could kill the bad guy and then continue on to kill an innocent. That's bad.

Shotguns (loaded with proper self defense ammunition) and handguns have more penetration than most 5.56 rounds.

My first pick would be the shotgun. Why? Because it's easy to handle and very powerful.

An AR is just as easy to handle.

The chances of over penetration are greatly reduced with the right load. But the largest benefit is multiple hits on the bad guy with one shot. Don't be fooled, the shotgun must still be aimed. However, if it is aimed properly, and you're using #4 shot, this means the bad guy will be hit ~150 times with a 1 1/8oz load. That's a lot of stopping.

Not necessarily. Most experts advise against using bird shot for home defense. Stick with #4 BUCKSHOT at a minimum, preferably #1 Buckshot.

The concept of a faster reload, while not to be overlooked, is not high on my list of necessities.

While 99% of scenarios there wont be a reload needed, you are missing one of the main points of a reload. In case of a gun jam, the quickest way to get the gun back into action is to discard the old magazine, clear the weapon, and insert a new magazine.

The AR holds 30 rounds, is very accurate, has less over penetration, is easy to manipulate, very easy to configure for home defense with a red dot and flash light. It also penetrates body armor, if the perp(s) is wearing it. Based on my real world life experiences, the AR15 is the best home defense gun, followed by the shotgun, and then distantly by a handgun.

If you come out of the shower to your wife screaming and an intruder holding a knife to her throat, would you want to take that shot with a shotgun or pistol? I can hit a human head size target out to 200 yards with nothing more than an Aimpoint.

 

[JaPes]

I'll throw a monkey wrench into this. As stated earlier, a pistol works for my bump in the night HD protection due to my overall circumstances and ability to train. I'm not saying that my AR or Shotgun won't be used. If I had the time to be more proactive than reactive, I'll sling one over my shoulder.

Now for the monkey-wrench.

I have had multiple opportunities to fondle an IWI tavor. I've been lucky enough to put a few rounds downrange thanks to a very friendly fellow firearms enthusiast. The 16.5" barreled bullpup is very compact and easy to handle. The weight distribution makes it very easy to keep shouldered and maneuver. When shouldered I can hold it easily with one hand. The trigger isn't the best. I'm betting that an AR-15 is more accurate over longer distances.

2-Hawk's observation that at HD ranges, combat effective hits are what counts not tight little groups rings true to me. If I were to use a rifle for my primary bump in the night defense, it would be the Tavor.

Now I'm just waiting for the civilian semi-auto model early adopters to finish alpha-testing (guinea-pig) the Tavors to work out all the unforseen kinks. I'm also waiting for a used one to pop up locally.

 

[2hawk]

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That'll work

 

[Rastoff]

The drill is something like this: grab gun, charge, right thumb stabs button on optic 3-4 times to get it up to proper brightness, go to high ready or firing position.

Since you brought it up, we should address a flaw in your process. For any gun, regardless of type, to be most effective it has to have a round already chambered. That first shot is the most important and you don't want to lose it before you have chance to fire it. Having to rack, pump or charge the gun before it's ready to use is adding the potential for a malfunction.

Shotguns (loaded with proper self defense ammunition) and handguns have more penetration than most 5.56 rounds.

First of all, did you read any of the previous posts before writing all this? I'm not going to post it again, but the Box-O-Truth disagrees with this. My own testing disagrees with this. So, I'm not buying that a pistol round has more penetration than a rifle round.

 

[JohnSW]

That's great strategy for a burglar in the suburbs with a 911 response in reasonable time.

I'm fortunate. Our (suburban) police department has a very fast response time, and highly trained canines. Trying to outrun a German Shepherd is an exercise is futility.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Opinions on this subject are endless. Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, says you use your handgun to fight your way to your long gun. His point being that the handgun is probably handier to reach quickly but your shotgun or rifle will win the day. Good theory. My issues with his theory, and he's the expert, not me, but therein lies the problem, his expertise versus my reality, is as follows:

1. Unless you live in a house similar to this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=que...reviews.com%2F2012_10_01_archive.html;548;346

you aren't going to be involved in any kind of a complex gunfight if your home is invaded. Whether your home is 1000 square feet or 4000 square feet it probably doesn't have sweeping views from balconies to lower rooms - even homes with two or three stories don't usually present sweeping panoramas for gunfights (think about the scene in the movie "Scarface" when Al Pacino opens up with his AR and says "Say hello to my little friend". You are NOT in that scene. Not ever. It's obviously less likely if you live in an apartment!

So a little dose of reality says the gun you grab first is probably the gun you'll be holding when the fight ends. Everything else is just theory. So, yes, I have a shotgun and a rifle in my bedroom closet. But the Model 686+ I keep at hand in the bedroom, the Model 10 I keep at hand in the living room, or some other easily reached handgun - there are others - will probably be the only gun I get to use.

If I have to fire so many rounds that I need to reload or grab a long gun I'm in far more serious trouble than the statistics suggest will ever occur in my home. So that's my long winded item 1.

Item 2a.

Where in the Sam Hill do you live where you think your errant rifle rounds (and there will be some) will NOT find their way to other rooms or to your neighbors' homes? Same for shotgun slugs. We're back to theory versus reality again. If I actually SEE a home invasion about to occur and can get to one of my several shotguns in different closets I'll actually have fewer rounds to fire than from a handgun in most cases. But, again, if I need more than 5 rounds from a shotgun to settle a home invasion I am in incredibly serious trouble - this could happen if there is an insurrection or a Hurricane Katrina but, otherwise, the fight won't last that long and, assuming I'm the winner, I want my neighbors to have HEARD it but not felt it.

Theory says buckshot. Reality dictates birdshot. Have you ever seen what birdshot will do up close and personal? You do not need buckshot to solve a home invasion; the spread of birdshot in your home will be almost exactly what you need to solve the problem.

Item 2b.

I do keep a rifle handy, as I said. But it's a "lowly" Winchester 94 levergun in .44 Magnum loaded with .44 Special rounds. Plenty of firepower (really - you think you need 20 rounds to protect your home? 10 in this case will do) and the lead bullets have a far better chance of breaking up when they hit things than the rounds hurtling out of my .223 AR which are guaranteed to penetrate walls and reach the neighbors. I don't use my 9mm for the same reason - the .38 Special, sometimes +P, in my .357 Magnum revolvers will work and will be less likely to over penetrate.

When I move here I'll load up an AR to defend the perimeter:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sou...thfork-ranch-in-plano-tx-this-week%2F;500;340

That's the reality.

***GRJ***

 

[gm272gs]

I'm fortunate. Our (suburban) police department has a very fast response time, and highly trained canines. Trying to outrun a German Shepherd is an exercise is futility.

Still - when seconds count - they're only minutes away.

Being fewer minutes away than other locales, doesn't necessarily make it better. Maybe you're warm and dead, rather than cold and dead. Still dead, though.

 

[686-380]

I'm intrigued by the FNH PS90. Although I doubt I'll ever take the plunge, talk about a perfect home AR defense...

 

[Dino1]

I figure the best gun for the job is the gun I have with me. For home protection... If I have pants on there's either a LCP or 642 in the pocket whether I'm mowing the lawn, watching TV or whatever, there's a gun in the pocket. In the bedroom there's a 12ga Winchester Defender loaded with 00 on the side of the bed and a Colt 1911 on the nightstand. My AR will be in the safe so that puts it out of the fight. I would have no hesitation or reluctance to use an AR for home defense, but for up close work if a 12ga is an option there are no other options, IMO.

Up close... and personal, the 12 gauge will do the most damage on flesh than the other options. Put a small hole in a doped up junkie and he will say why did you do that, rip half his rib cage away from him with a shot gun, and it's lights out.

 

[JoseVazquez76]

Hmm I agree if you need more than a few rounds to defend your home that means thins are bad. On side note of all the fire fights i have been in a only used a full 30 rd mag less than 3 times and multiple mags just once. 30 rd mags were intended for fire suppression not a full mag dump into someones body.

 

[2hawk]

Since you brought it up, we should address a flaw in your process. For any gun, regardless of type, to be most effective it has to have a round already chambered. That first shot is the most important and you don't want to lose it before you have chance to fire it. Having to rack, pump or charge the gun before it's ready to use is adding the potential for a malfunction.
...

Rastoff, your evaluation is pretty arrogant, and close to insulting. You don't know the layers of my security, or where the AR may come into play. I keep the HD pistols ready, condition 1 (1911 pattern guns). Long guns are loaded, chamber empty. This is just what I have arrived at as the best for me. You may have a different situation, and a different need.

I could elaborate, but I don't feel the need to justify or explain how I utilize firearms as part of my home security. I do not need a self appointed expert to tell me what will work best, although in the interest of civility I will say thanks for your input.

ETA, just to be a bit more clear, I fully agree that a gun "at the ready" should be charged, optic on, etc. Should there come a time when my AR is my first choice of HD weapon, I can assure you that it will be ready to go. But I am not now in a situation, nor do I anticipate any time in the near future, when I am parking the AR on the coffee table while I watch TV, locked and loaded in readiness for the zombie apocalypse. ymmv.

 

[Rastoff]

Rastoff, your evaluation is pretty arrogant, and close to insulting.

Sorry, it wasn't intended to be. We are discussing using a particular gun for self defense. I just noticed an action that could lead to a malfunction. Since you already have another gun ready to go, this becomes less of an issue. You're right, I didn't know that when I made my comment.

Yes, I see racking or chambering a round as a potential point of malfunction in what would be a stressful situation. Maybe "flaw" came across as arrogant or harsh. It was not intended that way and for that I apologize.

In fact, I was having this very discussion with a friend just an hour ago. He carries his M&P in condition 3 (loaded mag, but no round in the chamber). I asked him, "If you're not comfortable with having a round chambered in the M&P, why not get a different gun where you would be comfortable?" His answer was, "Because I like the M&P, it fits my hand and I'm comfortable shooting it." OK, I may not agree with his logic, but it's his choice and that's fine with me. We were just talking about it.

This is why we discuss these things here. At least it's why I do. Maybe there's something in my own preparations that isn't as effective as it could be. This is why I started this thread. I was curious to hear what others thought of using an AR for home defense.