WWII: How many fighter planes were shot down by U.S. bombers?

[Will Carry]

They didn't use the 37mm in the Bf-109. They used the Mk-108 30mm cannon. A late war Stuka had two 37mm cannons mounted under the wings for tank hunting. Hans Rudel flew one of those Stukas for a while.

 

[LVSteve]

Another questions about bombers is: how many of our own bombers did we shoot down with .50's and our own bombs?

There is a famous piece of film showing a bomb from a higher aircraft striking the wing root of a B-24 and taking it down. The commentary says it was hit by AAA, but I believe later frame by frame analysis picked out a bomb from above. It's a big sky, but Murphy can be very cruel, sometimes.

 

[Aticus]

Y'all might want to read "Masters of the Air" by Donald L. Miller. It seems to be well researched and has speaks about just this thing. It's not a novel but a good read none the less.

Something I wondered about the air war: where did all the bullets and empty cases land. I know that in the bombers most of the cases stayed aboard but the bullets? How much damage did they do when they hit the ground?

 

[LVSteve]

They didn't use the 37mm in the Bf-109. They used the Mk-108 30mm cannon. A late war Stuka had two 37mm cannons mounted under the wings for tank hunting. Hans Rudel flew one of those Stukas for a while.

^^^ This.

The Mauser company had just completed their 213 model when the war ended. This was a revolver cannon that was promptly copied by France (DEFA) , the UK (ADEN), the US (M3) and the Swedes (KCA, KDA etc). It had a higher muzzle velocity than the 20mm MG 151 and a much higher rate of fire. The Mauser 213 would have been very bad news for the bomber crews.

 

[Bkreutz]

Something I wondered about the air war: where did all the bullets and empty cases land. I know that in the bombers most of the cases stayed aboard but the bullets? How much damage did they do when they hit the ground?

When I lived in Germany in the late 70's I met a man who made a living by using a metal detector and picking up brass from the fields. He said his father started doing it after the war and he just kept on. I wonder if his son is now doing the same thing.

 

[S&W ucla]

Back in October I took a ride on a B-17G when The Collings Foundation flew in to our local airport. I grew up with WW2 vets and miss them all now. After taking flight in that "tin can" I really appreciated a tiny bit of what they went through. If you ever get the chance, be sure and go, even if it's just to climb through the planes. If you can, go for the flight. Help support this living history group and keep these memorials flying. They brought a B-17G, B-24, and P-51 when they came here. Thanks to those brave men and women who risked, and gave, all for our freedom.

 

[DR505]

Here is a bit of trivia:
Q: What was the first US fighter to fly from England to Berlin and back for escort duty?

A: The P-38 Lightning.

The P-38 did much more for the war in Europe than it normally is given credit for. The p-51, a much later edition to the ETO, got all the credit. But, the P-38 was there early when there were more and better German fighters/pilots. CC Jordan had a great article on his web site about this, but that site has disappeared.

Edit: Found that GREAT web site: Planes and Pilots of WWII

 

[LVSteve]

Something I wondered about the air war: where did all the bullets and empty cases land. I know that in the bombers most of the cases stayed aboard but the bullets? How much damage did they do when they hit the ground?

During the Blitz my Dad's schoolfriend got up one morning to find a machine gun belt hanging over one of the outside shutters. Of course, he took it to school to show all his mates, which was fine until an adult realized that there were still live rounds in it. Hilarity followed, I believe.

 

[Tam 3]

I've never understood why the P-38 flew 2000 mile missions in the Pacific, but couldn't be effective as an escort for the 8th Air Force. At 20,000 ft. it is as cold in the Solomons as it is over Europe. It was a pain to maintain two engines I suppose.

Regards,

Tam 3

 

[THE PILGRIM]

The P-38 was never as good a dog fighter as the P-51. Early combat against seasoned Germans was not very successful. By the time we learned how to use to be P-38 in Europe, the P-51 had arrived.
The P-51 was superior and therefore preferred. We were desperate to reduce bomber losses. So the best equipment that was available, the P-51, would be used. The air superiority situation in Europe was way more desperate than it was in the Pacific.
Remember, we weren't there to evaluate the superiority of one airplane over Another airplane.
We were there to win.

 

[Bkreutz]

Here's an interesting article about the P-38 and the ETO

Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning

 

[dcxplant]

Dick Bong managed pretty well in a P-38!

The P-38 was never as good a dog fighter as the P-51. Early combat against seasoned Germans was not very successful. By the time we learned how to use to be P-38 in Europe, the P-51 had arrived.
The P-51 was superior and therefore preferred. We were desperate to reduce bomber losses. So the best equipment that was available, the P-51, would be used. The air superiority situation in Europe was way more desperate than it was in the Pacific.
Remember, we weren't there to evaluate the superiority of one airplane over Another airplane.
We were there to win.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Dick Bong managed pretty well in a P-38!

That right. But we don't really know how good he would've been if he had a P-51, now do we?

 

[the ringo kid]

They didn't use the 37mm in the Bf-109. They used the Mk-108 30mm cannon. A late war Stuka had two 37mm cannons mounted under the wings for tank hunting. Hans Rudel flew one of those Stukas for a while.

And inspite of his injuries, Rudel refused to stop flying. He flew Stuka's through the entire war. His bravery is also why only oneman--he himself) was the recipient of the: Knights Cross of the Iron Cross w/GOLDEN Oak Leaves, swords and Diamonds. Hartmann had the same awards--only his Oak Leaves were not Gold as in Rudels case. There were 26 more, who earned the same awards as Hartmann.

 

[Rex Goliath]

I've never understood why the P-38 flew 2000 mile missions in the Pacific, but couldn't be effective as an escort for the 8th Air Force. At 20,000 ft. it is as cold in the Solomons as it is over Europe. It was a pain to maintain two engines I suppose.

Regards,
Tam 3

The P-38 was a "heavy" fighter and was Used in the Pacific Theater from the outset at Pearl Harbor until VJ Day. Since it was too slow in the roll, it was not great at dogfighting. The slow roll in the OODA Loop (observe, orient, decide, act) was a limiting factor. P-38's were great bomber escorts, performed well long range over great expanses of water. Made a good showing in Burma/China fighting. My father-in-law was a USN machinist and says they were solid a solid aircraft.

A Frenchman named EJ Houdry developed a process for increasing av fuel octane. Good that we had him working for us stateside.
The later model Mustang (and some Spitfires) had made engineering and production changes in engine compression, thus faster climb rate, altitude gains an advantage and enemy could not as readily pursue (past a certain point) in the climb.

War fighting is a series of blunders. The side which makes the fewest is the winner.
=== begin clip ===
Until the development of Allied long-range fighters the Luftwaffe remained capable of inflicting serious losses by the day fighter and night fighter units (Nachtgeschwader), as well as the anti-aircraft guns under its command. The Luftwaffe employed twin-engined Ju 88 and Bf 110 Zerstörer, or bomber destroyer units to attack American formation with rockets and heavy cannon with considerable success. However with the arrival of the long range P-51D these units suffered heavy losses.

The turn in the Luftwaffe's fortunes came during Big Week in which the U.S. Eighth Air Force flying from bases in Britain, and Fifteenth Air Force flying from bases in Southern Italy, carried out raids against German aviation industry throughout Europe. Together they dropped roughly 10,000 tons of bombs and seriously disrupted German fighter production. During Big Week, the Eighth Air Force lost 97 B-17s. Coupled with B-24 losses the figure totaled 137 initially and 20 more scrapped due to damage. The Fifteenth Air Force lost 90 aircraft and American fighter losses stood at 28. The Luftwaffe losses were high amongst their twin-engined Zerstörer units which suffered heavy losses and decimated the Bf 110 and Me 410 Gruppen. More worrying for the Jagdwaffe was the loss of 17 per-cent of its pilots; nearly 100 were killed. The tide had turned, and air superiority had passed to the Western Allies.

P-51D 374th Fighter Squadron. This is an early D-model, without the fin strake; 75 gallon (284 litre) drop tanks are on the wing racks. When long-range fighter support became widely available by May 1944, the Luftwaffe's defensive effort was severely damaged. The P-51D Mustangs and P-47 Thunderbolts with extended range were now able to escort the bombers to and from the target. The Luftwaffe now did not have opportunity to attack the unprotected fleets. The resulting air battles diminished the strength of the Jagdwaffe.

U.S. and RAF fighters undertook many fighter sweeps, and the boundaries of the front line steadily moved eastward. They engaged many Luftwaffe training aircraft, and the helpless Jagdflieger of tomorrow were shot down in droves. Pilot training had become shorter in order to fill the front line Gruppen, which often had more aircraft than pilots. German aircraft production reached its peak in August 1944, finally equaling the Soviet and American output, but the production came too late to alter the outcome of the air war. The Luftwaffe had plenty of aircraft but a critical shortage of experienced fighter pilots.

The Allied air campaign was not successful in knocking Germany out of the war by itself, but it contributed significantly to the German defeat, by forcing the Germans to focus valuable resources on the battle over Germany, which were then missed on other fronts. Albert Speer said that if the 1944 campaign against the Romanian oil fields had been continued for another month, the entire Wehrmacht would have been crippled. According to Speer, 98% of Germany's aircraft fuel plants were out of production. The production of aviation fuel fell from 180,000 tons to 20,000 tons between March and November 1944.

To increase the Jagdwaffe's woes the American fighters were now flying shuttle missions and landing at bases in the Soviet Union. This tactic enabled them to extend their already considerable combat time over the target area. American enthusiasm for these missions ended when the Russians failed to defend these aircraft from Luftwaffe attacks. One such raid in March 1944 destroyed 43 B-17s and 15 P-51 fighters on the ground.

Strafing Luftwaffe airbases became common place as 1944 wore on, until nowhere in Europe could the Jagdwaffe remain outside of Allied range. If the fuel crisis was bad enough the casualties suffered by the now largely defunct Kampfgruppen were starting to become serious. Most bomber units were now ferrying and transporting personnel across Germany. In April/May 1944 the Luftwaffe lost 67 aircraft of this type, as far east as Dresden.

Many Allied fighter gun cameras often revealed that aircraft which had been claimed destroyed as '109's were often Arado Ar 96 trainers with a cadet pilot at the controls. To counter this non-combat flights were only to carried out at dawn and dusk. The Luftwaffe expanded aircraft warning systems and devised radio signals to warn flights of intruders. If attacked, poorly armed aircraft were to dive down to tree-top level, and if necessary, the pilot was to belly land and take cover, as pilots were far more important than aircraft.

The Germans also used camouflage, smoke screens and resorted to burying vital communications and electrical cables serving their radar and command stations. Ammunition was stored in tunnels along with precious fuel supplies. Allied pilots also noted that the Germans covered the airfields with 20 mm quadruple and 37 mm flak guns capable of putting up withering sheets of fire in the path of low flying fighters. As a result of these measures Allied fighter losses increased.

The introduction of the B-17G with its remote controlled 'chin' turret forced a change of tactic on the Jagdwaffe. Throughout 1943 head-on attacks had proved successful against American heavy bombers. Many Luftwaffe units now upgraded the firepower of their fighters. Some Fw 190 fighters carried MK 108 30 mm cannon that could destroy most heavy bombers with two or three hits. The later variants of the Messerschmitt Bf 109 (from the Gustav onwards) were also capable of carrying heavier armament like the MK 108, although only a single barrel firing through the propeller shaft as an engine-mounted Motorkanone.

By September 1944 the Soviets were advancing into Romania and the oilfields were lost. From this time, the Luftwaffe experienced chronic shortages of fuel. Many German interceptors returning from missions switched off their engines on touching down to avoid wasting fuel. Ground crews then quickly got them under cover. By this time fighter pilot losses were becoming unbearable, and the Jagdwaffe was nearing breaking point.

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[LVSteve]

Here's an interesting article about the P-38 and the ETO

Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning

You cannot help wondering what the P-38 could have been if Kelly Johnson had been listened to regarding compressibility. A laminar flow wing on this type might have been spectacular. Look at the P-63 compared to the P-39.

There are two or three things I take issue with in the linked article. First, the bit about the RAF wanting commonality with its non-turbo'd P-40s clashes with other assertions that the US removed them because of technology transfer worries. I suspect an element of both.

Also, to say that the P-39 was ineffective is a little unkind as it ended up being built that way AFTER its turbo had been removed. As I understand it, Bell pulled a classic "bait and switch", offering to France and Britain the P-39 with the non-turbo motor but quoting the performance figures for the turbo'd prototype.

The part about the fuel separating also afflicted the RAF in extreme conditions. Post-war piston engines were often fitted with fuel pre-heaters to alleviate the issue. My reference there is Jane's All the World's Aircraft and Aero Engines 1949/50. I suspect that the fuels were at the hairy limit of the chemistry of the day, and to blame it on improper blending may be somewhat harsh.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Knew a Mustang pilot who got into the Last part of the war in Europe.
This was a guy who was always in trouble when I knew him and he started early way back then.
When they they were flying a fighter sweep and headed across northern France. They were flying low and stacked down.
Every time they made a turn, The Squadron Commander who was leading, would look back and Yell at him , 'get lower, get your *** down lower.'
Pretty soon He was so low that big prop was cutting arcs as he crossed hedgerows. He had to pull up as he approached some of them.
That type of mission is a lot more fun than protecting bombers. You head for an airfield and destroy everything you see out in the open. You strafe every vehicle, train and all military activities you see until you don't have anymore ammo.

 

[zzzippper]

And inspite of his injuries, Rudel refused to stop flying. He flew Stuka's through the entire war. His bravery is also why only oneman--he himself) was the recipient of the: Knights Cross of the Iron Cross w/GOLDEN Oak Leaves, swords and Diamonds. Hartmann had the same awards--only his Oak Leaves were not Gold as in Rudels case. There were 26 more, who earned the same awards as Hartmann.

Rudel finished the war flying the Fw-190. He was credited with killing 511 tanks, was an air-to-air ace, and sank a battleship. He was shot down 14 times, Hartmann 11 times.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Rudel finished the war flying the Fw-190. He was credited with killing 511 tanks, was an air-to-air ace, and sank a battleship. He was shot down 14 times, Hartmann 11 times.

A buddy of mine were standing on an German airfield with a Luftwaffe General.
They were on a NATO inspection trip. So he asked the General, what did you fly in the big war? Stuka's! Did you get shot down?
The general answered yes, I forget how many, it was several.
Then he pointed across the field they were Standing on.
The last time was right over there. He would land, they would load a bomb, take off he would drop the bomb, etc.
He was bombing approaching American tanks. Finally they shot him down.
The war was over for him.

 

[Texas Star]

Rudel finished the war flying the Fw-190. He was credited with killing 511 tanks, was an air-to-air ace, and sank a battleship. He was shot down 14 times, Hartmann 11 times.

I know what became of Hartmann. After imprisonment by the Soviets under harsh conditions until the mid-1950s, he was released and became a Major General in the postwar Luftwaffe.

What became of Rudel? I understand that he remained a staunch Nazi. I don't think that Hartmann was ever a Party member.