AR as a home defense gun?

[Brian41]

Real good thread and enjoyed reading it.

It's just my wife and I in a ranch house in the country. My wife is not a gun person and she's only fired revolvers so that's our main HD guns in the house. She has refused to shoot a shotgun or rifle.
I do keep an 870 handy as I'm a lifelong bird hunter and shotguns are a natural for me. I used to keep an AR with it but there wasn't really enough room for both so it went to the safe.
It being a choice between shotgun or AR I went with what I'm most familiar with and can handle better. I learned on M-16s in the service and have had ARs a long time too and am familiar with them but not to the extent as shotguns.
If however all my shotguns were gone I'd have no problem using an AR for HD. With them being in the safe I don't see one ever coming into play in my household for HD though.

 

[bhayles]

My nephew was over yesterday...24 years old, full of piss and vinegar...and a member of the Army's special forces. He says the M4 is his favorite weapon for close in, home defense type use.

Big enough for him, big enough for me.

One thing not addressed (much) in this thread is familiarity and training.

As I had said in the quoted comment, a person who has been there and done that, and is Army Special Forces, tells me that the M4 platform is his preferred home defense gun. I figure he oughtta know, better than most, what he is talking about.

So...since he says that, and since I have an AR, my choice should be the AR...right?

No. Or, at least not right now. I've spend over 50 years shooting pump shotguns (never owned an auto and shot my double rarely), bolt action rifles, revolvers, and semi-auto pistols. One of those is my choice of HD gun.

Why, when a real expert says an AR is better? Because he says its better FOR HIM, thanks to familiarity and training. Right now trying to use an AR in a high stress defensive situaation would likely get me killed.

That will change with time (I hope...), but for now, the gun I feel most comfortable using in a HD situation is my Glock 23.

Familiarity and training could potentially make a 22LR more appropriate that a 12 ga pump if that 22LR is what the individual could use best at that point in time.

 

[Voyager28]

.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
45 ACP 157.0 dB

12ga 18" barrel 161.50dB

.223 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB

FreeHearingTest.com - Gunfire Noise Levels

While this data is probably accurate it doesn't tell nearly the whole story. I can tell you from my military days that volume (db) doesn't tell the whole story, not by a long shot. (no pun intended) Just as important is pitch. While a 12ga may be louder in volume the .223 is a much higher pitched "crack" that does the damage. Shotguns are much more of a lower pitched "boom" and do far less ear damage. This from lots and LOTS of experience in Vietnam with guys suffering extensive hearing loss after prolonged fire fights with M-16's. I had guys suffer as much as 80% hearing loss, sometimes temporary, sometimes not so temporary.

Bob

 

[bhayles]

While this data is probably accurate it doesn't tell nearly the whole story. I can tell you from my military days that volume (db) doesn't tell the whole story, not by a long shot. (no pun intended) Just as important is pitch. While a 12ga may be louder in volume the .223 is a much higher pitched "crack" that does the damage. Shotguns are much more of a lower pitched "boom" and do far less ear damage. This from lots and LOTS of experience in Vietnam with guys suffering extensive hearing loss after prolonged fire fights with M-16's. I had guys suffer as much as 80% hearing loss, sometimes temporary, sometimes not so temporary.

Bob

Gotta agree.

I've put more shots downrange with a 22 than anything else in my life, followed by a 12 ga. I've never used hearing protection in over 50 years of shooting.

That changed 3 months ago with the acquisition of my AR. After my first 5 rounds I was looking for some good hearing protection. My 300 Win mag never even made me do that.

 

[Mister X]

One thing not addressed (much) in this thread is familiarity and training.

As I had said in the quoted comment, a person who has been there and done that, and is Army Special Forces, tells me that the M4 platform is his preferred home defense gun. I figure he oughtta know, better than most, what he is talking about.

So...since he says that, and since I have an AR, my choice should be the AR...right?

No. Or, at least not right now. I've spend over 50 years shooting pump shotguns (never owned an auto and shot my double rarely), bolt action rifles, revolvers, and semi-auto pistols. One of those is my choice of HD gun.

Why, when a real expert says an AR is better? Because he says its better FOR HIM, thanks to familiarity and training. Right now trying to use an AR in a high stress defensive situaation would likely get me killed.

That will change with time (I hope...), but for now, the gun I feel most comfortable using in a HD situation is my Glock 23.

Familiarity and training could potentially make a 22LR more appropriate that a 12 ga pump if that 22LR is what the individual could use best at that point in time.

Good points. And it's not just about training and familiarity, but also context. A lots of folks look to what Navy SEALS/special forces use and think that must be the best and choose their weapon based on what they use. For the SF guys circumstances, it may be best, but there is a world of difference between Military operations and civilian self-defense, so what is best in terms of tactics and gear will be different as well. Just because a guy is in a military special forces unit doesn't mean he knows much or would even be effective in a civilian self-defense scenario.

 

[rojodiablo]

Gotta agree.

I've put more shots downrange with a 22 than anything else in my life, followed by a 12 ga. I've never used hearing protection in over 50 years of shooting.

That changed 3 months ago with the acquisition of my AR. After my first 5 rounds I was looking for some good hearing protection. My 300 Win mag never even made me do that.

Get on the front side of the muzzle when the thing is fired (I HIGHLY recommend not being directly in front of it.....) You will find that while it's not that bad being in back of it, the sound out the business end is astounding.

 

[Bedouin2W]

I think you are making a very broad statement about an AR not being the best tool for home defense.

First of all, every home defense situation is different. When I lived in a sub-900 sq. ft. apartment in an urban area, a semi auto pistol with night sights, a light, and ideally a suppressor would have been the best choice. Now that I live in a rural area, and have multiple people to defend, an AR is best for my situation. I am building a 9-inch AR "pistol" (until I can convince the Household Financial Executive to allow me to drop the tax stamp for a SBR) in 300 BLK that will be loaded with subsonics and eventually suppressed with a light. This will be my dedicated HD gun.

Subsonic, suppressed 300 BLK is quieter than high velocity .22LR. It is still effective without having to factor in over holds up to 200m. That is more than enough for my home and immediate area.

If there were an intruder (or intruders) in my home, the first thing I would try do is get to the nursery to get my daughter. At that point, barricading in place is not an option. Protecting my daughter is a non-negotiable requirement. The moment you leave a defensive position, you must assume an offensive mindset. For me, an AR is the best offensive weapon. I have done 3 combat deployments with a rifle from the M16 family and I don't need to state the similarities between an AR and M4 to this audience.

An AR is the best choice for me due to my training and knowledge of the weapon. Jerry Miculek may choose a revolver or pistol (and God help anyone breaking into his house, lol) and Chris Costa stated in an interview with Rem870.com that a suppressed pistol (I can't remember if it was an M&P or 1911) is his HD gun. Everyone is different. Jerry Miculek and Chris Costa have different training and do not have the same experiences, and the same HD requirements that I have.

Everyone has different proficiency levels with different tools and have different situations they would have to account for in an HD situation.

But with that being said, the lack of over-penetration argument with a shotgun is a myth. A shotgun offers the same negatives as an AR that you stated - actually it expands on those negatives because it is louder and longer - without the ease of reloading and capacity. A shotgun also absolutely requires 2 hands to shoot effectively, unless your a cyborg sent from the future to protect John Conor while riding on a motorcycle. You can shoulder and fire a short AR accurately with a Red Dot Sight. Also, a shotgun is heavier and does not have a work around the length requirement like a AR-pistol does. It is easily the worst option for anyone other than a professional shotgunner, skeet shooter, etc...

Your suggestion of using #4 shot has been proven to provide the same over-penetration issues that supersonic .223/5.56 has.

Also, why in the hell would you choose, or even mention, birdshot? Did you watch Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds too many times? Birdshot is for.... wait for it.... BIRDS! Hollow boned, fragile, feather covered animals. Please show me a documented case of an avian home invasion before you ever even ponder of using birdshot for HD, let alone give it a mention in what is good for HD.

Also, this statement:

The concept of a faster reload, while not to be overlooked, is not high on my list of necessities. Having 7 rounds of #4 shot loaded up should be more than enough to handle any intruder. Unless you're expecting to fight off the advancing zombie hoards. If you're really preparing for that, this discussion is moot.

is the worst advice you can give. The last home invasion in my area had multiple assailants. A guy with a rifle fought them off. Maybe if you live in NY or another ban-state you don't care about capacity. Why would you not want as many rounds as possible without hindering your ability to accomplish your mission? I realize you're hindered in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, but why not have two coupled mags loaded with 10 each? 20 is better than 7.

Rifle or Pistol, then the other, then Shotgun.

 

[Ruark]

My eyes are just too weak at this point to use irons reliably.

Same here - but I'm staying with the stock irons on my M&P15 Sport, because in a high-pressure self defense situation, I won't have time to try to line up an optical device. In a home-invasion situation, it's going to be point-and-shoot, maybe even from waist level.

 

[Rastoff]

Same here - but I'm staying with the stock irons on my M&P15 Sport, because in a high-pressure self defense situation, I won't have time to try to line up an optical device. In a home-invasion situation, it's going to be point-and-shoot, maybe even from waist level.

Have you ever used a red dot or a Holographic Weapon Sight (HWS)? Both are far superior to the stock iron sights when talking about quick acquisition.

 

[Alpha Sierra]

Same here - but I'm staying with the stock irons on my M&P15 Sport, because in a high-pressure self defense situation, I won't have time to try to line up an optical device. In a home-invasion situation, it's going to be point-and-shoot, maybe even from waist level.

Good grief! Why don't you take a one or two day defensive carbine class and get educated. You could not be more uninformed about how to use a carbine in self defense.

 

[Ruark]

Have you ever used a red dot or a Holographic Weapon Sight (HWS)? Both are far superior to the stock iron sights when talking about quick acquisition.

Of course they are, if it's at all possible (e.g. my wife tells me there's a coyote in the front yard). But as I said, in a "living room range" home invasion situation, it's going to be point-and-shoot.

 

[cyphertext]

Of course they are, if it's at all possible (e.g. my wife tells me there's a coyote in the front yard). But as I said, in a "living room range" home invasion situation, it's going to be point-and-shoot.

And at those ranges, the red dot is superior for fast acquisition. Go take a look at your local PD SWAT guys, see what they are using.

If you won't have time to shoulder the firearm and use a red dot, then I am betting that you won't have time to get to the AR.

 

[Mister X]

Some of you folks must live in some really big houses.

 

[cyphertext]

Some of you folks must live in some really big houses.

It isn't about the size of the house. If you don't know that there is a threat in the home until you have so little time to react that you can't shoulder a firearm and use a red dot, you have more issues than the choice of firearm to use.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Same here - but I'm staying with the stock irons on my M&P15 Sport, because in a high-pressure self defense situation, I won't have time to try to line up an optical device. In a home-invasion situation, it's going to be point-and-shoot, maybe even from waist level.

To the contrary, iron sights require the operator to line up front with rear. 1x red dot does not. If time for aiming is an issue, 1x red dot is faster than irons.

 

[jdh]

I just use the force.

 

[rojodiablo]

Is there a link to a news story regarding this incident?

Not really sure of that. The city was Westminster Ca. Year would have been about 1991, maybe 1992. My 1st son was still in diapers, and not in a full time bed yet.

The perp survived, and I was reprimanded for expelling so much ammo, but it was found justified after about a week.
It helped that of the rounds fired, most were mine, and 14 of those were located in the perps' car and none were found in any neighbors houses or vehicles. It definitely carried some weight in saving me from a serious negligent discharge offense.

Man, I was so young then; seems like light years away.

 

[Mister X]

It isn't about the size of the house. If you don't know that there is a threat in the home until you have so little time to react that you can't shoulder a firearm and use a red dot, you have more issues than the choice of firearm to use.

And why it makes sense for the first choice and line of defense for a civilian homeowner should be the handgun. What PD SWAT guys or Military Spec Ops guys use is irrelevant since those guys operate as teams and choose the time and place of when to offensively engage. None of that applies to a civilian home defense situation. Reserve the AR or Shotgun for when you take up a fixed location in a designated safe room. And unless you live in the Taj Mahal, the distances where you would actually fire would be so short that you could likely do just as well having no sights on your weapon at all.

 

[cyphertext]

And why it makes sense for the first choice and line of defense for a civilian homeowner should be the handgun. What PD SWAT guys or Military Spec Ops guys use is irrelevant since those guys operate as teams and choose the time and place of when to offensively engage. None of that applies to a civilian home defense situation. Reserve the AR or Shotgun for when you take up a fixed location in a designated safe room. And unless you live in the Taj Mahal, the distances where you would actually fire would be so short that you could likely do just as well having no sights on your weapon at all.

A handgun is not my first choice, my shotgun is. Again, if you don't know that there is a threat in your home until they are less than 7 yards away, you have bigger issues. I don't go clear my home room to room... the dog does that.

Even with no sights, you would still need to shoulder and point the AR, not fire from the hip as stated above. And if you are bringing it to your shoulder, a red dot sight system is very fast target acquisition.

 

[Mister X]

A handgun is not my first choice, my shotgun is. Again, if you don't know that there is a threat in your home until they are less than 7 yards away, you have bigger issues. I don't go clear my home room to room... the dog does that.

Even with no sights, you would still need to shoulder and point the AR, not fire from the hip as stated above. And if you are bringing it to your shoulder, a red dot sight system is very fast target acquisition.

Do you answer your door with a shotgun? Do you carry it around the house with you at all times? Have it on you when you come home at night? I assume you live alone since your sending the dog out to "clear the house", but some of us have families and kids and if a home invasion occurs in the middle of the night, you must move to their room. It's much more practical and effective to do so with a handgun. Even if I lived alone, I would still take a handgun to investigate the typical bump in the night for maneuverability, weapon retention, operating light switches, opening doors etc. Many SWAT officers I've trained with do the same when they are home since they don't have the benefit of a team and even do so when on duty if operating alone. If someone kicked in your door at anytime of day or night, what's the maximum distance they would possibly be from you? Distance to my front door from where I'm sitting right now is about 3 yards. Distance to my bedroom door is about about 10 yards, so not really going to be a whole lot of time to react there if someone was to gain entry into my home, especially if it occurred while sleeping.