FBI's new 9mm ammo

[Model 15-4ever]

The FBI's protocol and minimum penetration standards are not the holy grail. They were set up after the Miami shootout so the FBI management could blame a bullet instead of pathetic training and worse tactics. Anyone who thinks different is not familiar with the FBI.

Far more realistic is the Border Patrols requirement of 9" or 10" penetration. BUT the Feebles refused to listen so the BP went out on their own. It speaks volumes about the arrogance of the Feebies desk jockeys. They reject the real world experience of the BP which has more shootings than all other Federal agencies totaled together.

I'll put more credence with the BP and other real world feedback rather than if a bullet goes 15" in gelatin.

People can disagree on what is adequate for their, or their agencies, needs or situations. What the FBI has done is set a standard for their own needs. They make clear that others might have different standards. But most agencies have determined that the FBI standards and testing are correct, and meet their own needs as determined by street results.

As for your opinions... I could use your kind of bias and say that the Border Patrol shoots skinny Mexican rock throwers in the desert, who hide behind sagebrush, so 9" is plenty. But that would be the disingenuous. Sorry you've had a bad experience with the FBI, whatever your personal reasons for attacking them are. Most of the LE professionals around here that work with them don't share your views, or use your silly slurs. Haters just gotta hate.

 

[Malaki7]

Well, my FBI bride has had the same crappy Glock for the past 11 years so not too sure where the notion comes from that the bureau changes all that often. Must be another FBI out there that I don't know about. She has other POWs but they all came out of her bank account, not the government's. Just setting the record straight. Any other agents feel free to step in here and keep this thread accurate and respectable.
Chuck

Thank you for sharing some actual facts. I was also getting worked up reading the previous posts. I also work for the same agency. My first glock 22 was 13 years old. I got it when it was 7 years old. The only reason I got a new one was because they were upgrading to Gen 3's. I've had my current one for 8 years. If you have already been issued a glock 40 then it will not be replaced. New agents coming from the Academy will be issued the 9mm. This should put some of the BS to rest.

We are very fortunate to get updated magazines on a regular basis. We all know that a magazine is the cause for most malfunctions. It seems like every year they are tweaking them. The last big change to magazines happened when we switched from the 165 gr to the more powerful 180 gr round.

I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT.

I'm going to cut this short because it's already getting too long. I recently read a paper from the ballistics section which goes into the whole 9mm vs 40 vs 45 debate. I wish I could post it because it is relevant to everything that has been brought up on this forum but I'm sure it would be a no-no. Be safe

 

[shawn mccarver]

This particular thread which started off innocently enough, . . . .

I started this thread because anything the FBI does in terms of ammo selection or pistol selection is "big news."

I am not an agent, nor do I play one on TV. Two of my college friends, however, have been with the Bureau for so long now that retirement is "just around the corner." Through them, I have met and associated with many FBI agents, and I have, without exception, found each to be "good people."

The FBI spends untold dollars to test ammo, and they will share that information, as stated, without charge, to requesting agencies. Like their results or methods or not, no one can correctly accuse the FBI of not following "scientific method" in its testing, which are conducted to exacting standards related to what the FBI has determined are its needs. The tests can be repeated and verified.

I also wish that the personal attacks on the FBI and its agents would be scaled back so that we can discuss the ammo question at hand in a civil way.

To you folks on this Forum who are FBI agents, I have not met you in person, but I have read and enjoy your posts, and I want you to know that I, and many, many others here appreciate what each of you do, and I am grateful for it.

Thank you.

PS - I love Eliza's response about HER nose ring!!!

 

[LtBlue425]

Cause no one else is dumb enough to mandate a 12lb trigger. I was in the NYPD academy at the time they had Glock factory people at Rodmans Neck (NYPD's main firing range) trying to replicate the problem. Most of them agreed it had to do with "making it do something it wasn't designed to do" with the extra heavy triggers. It was about a year later, everyone went to the speer ammo.

Ahh...my agency management was! Someone up the food chain figured NYPD had it figured so we'd just copy them. Wish we had video of the training classes as the entire dept went through the transition. No wonder the ranges have holes everywhere. I actually shot it very well but I'd been shooting a D/A revolver for many years plus PPC competition.

What chaps my behind is our brass didn't bother to investigate whether the 9mm 147 sub-sonic was any good, until after an OIS. Then they got hussling and calling other agencies (yep same problem) then did gel testing. By that time we'd gotten a kickass chief who lit a blowtorch under some rear ends. Within a few months we had new Glock .40's with 165 Gold Dot. Amazing how well some people can perform if they're worried about their jobs.

 

[IAhunter]

There was some inaccurate info post above regarding USBP ammo. If 115 grain +P 9mm was issued, it was prior to 1992, and didn't last long, and issuance of that ammo for duty has long since ceased. From 1992 to about 1996 when we transitioned to .40 S&W, the DUTY 9mm load was Federal 124 gr. +P+ Hydrashok for agents authorized personally owned 9mm pistols. Issue guns were 357 magnum, and the majority of our agents carried issued revolvers.

Transition dates to the .40 varied depending upon location, but by 1997 nearly all had transitioned to the .40. Ammo was 155 gr. JHP by Remington, Winchester, or Federal. In the last couple of years, we switched to the 180 Federal HST, and no 9mm has been issued for duty pistols in years. This info pertains to USBP only, can't speak for ICE.

 

[29-1]

"I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT."

I may be wrong and if so, my apologies, but I don't think any of the claimed to be LEOs FBI haters in this thread have attended or ever will attend the National Academy. Had they done so, their comments would be coming from a 180.
Chuck

 

[DR505]

Every time I go through Firearms Instructor Recertification, or any time I'm at Quantico actually, I stop by the BRF and see what is the latest. They have some interesting things going on...one of the most recent was the initial purchase, training, and issuance of 7.62 x 54 rifles (La Rue OBR) for our Indian Country agents. If any of you LE folks are ever in the neighborhood, swing by and have a visit.

 

[LtBlue425]

"I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT."

I may be wrong and if so, my apologies, but I don't think any of the claimedto be LEOs FBI haters in this thread have attended or ever will attend the National Academy. Had they done so, their comments would be coming from a 180.
Chuck

I've been to the Academy for 6 different courses, all sponsored and taught by the FBI forensic lab. Excellent courses. Mixing with the Green Shirts and Blue Flamers was interesting in many ways.
Are the ballistics people you refer to, part of the Lab or a different unit? Hard enough to navigate the gerbil tunnels much less keep track of all the sub-units at the NA.

 

[LtBlue425]

One area where the FBI has a HUGE advantage is the amount of money available for equipment and facilities. To a municipal Lt who sometimes had to fight for a $50 line item in the budget, it is just mind boggling. The money also gives you the staff to do a lot of things most LE can't because of workload and lack of bodies.

Being in the middle of a large Marine base has its advantages for training without distraction from the general public. Plus its not every day I get to fly around in the HRT chopper.

 

[DR505]

Are the ballistics people you refer to, part of the Lab or a different unit? Hard enough to navigate the gerbil tunnels much less keep track of all the sub-units at the NA.

The Ballistic Research Facility is part of the Defensive Systems Unit at Quantico...absolutely no relation to the Lab.

 

[Boge]

There was some inaccurate info post above regarding USBP ammo. If 115 grain +P 9mm was issued, it was prior to 1992, and didn't last long, and issuance of that ammo for duty has long since ceased...

Fed. BPLE 115 gr. +p+ was used for awhile before. Easily one of the best "manstopper" rounds ever made in the opinion of those who used it or saw it used. The problem for the G-Men was that it did not always reach the arbitrary 12" of penetration in their testing, notwithstanding the fact that it had practically killed more people than cholera. I think they have an ESE level mandate as well that coffee must penetrate more than 1/2" of a doughnut before a DD1155 is let.

 

[DR505]

Fed. BPLE 115 gr. +p+ was used for awhile before. Easily one of the best "manstopper" rounds ever made in the opinion of those who used it or saw it used. The problem for the G-Men was that it did not always reach the arbitrary 12" of penetration in their testing, notwithstanding the fact that it had practically killed more people than cholera. I think they have an ESE level mandate as well that coffee must penetrate more than 1/2" of a doughnut before a DD1155 is let.

I saw a coyote hit at about 25 yards in the side with a BPLE 9mm from a USBP handgun...the round hit it just back of the ribs, exiting the far side. It took off running and we tracked it for 3 miles. Never did find it though.

The 12" of penetration requirement is not "arbitrary." If you call the BRF they will explain the rationale so you can understand it.

 

[riverrat38]

"I saw a coyote hit at about 25 yards in the side with a BPLE 9mm from a USBP handgun...the round hit it just back of the ribs, exiting the far side. It took off running and we tracked it for 3 miles. Never did find it though."

Since it was so fast in flight, I assume you were referring to the four legged variety.

Best,
Rick

 

[S&W Fan]

Being in the middle of a large Marine base has its advantages for training without distraction from the general public. Plus its not every day I get to fly around in the HRT chopper.

Hey, now you're just bragging!! LOL, I love helos.

 

[LtBlue425]

Hey, now you're just bragging!! LOL, I love helos.

It's the only chopper that I wasn't nervous flying in. Much better maintained than Army Guard Hueys, those things scared the **** out of me. That was just the frayed seat belts, no telling what else was neglected.

 

[DR505]

"I saw a coyote hit at about 25 yards in the side with a BPLE 9mm from a USBP handgun...the round hit it just back of the ribs, exiting the far side. It took off running and we tracked it for 3 miles. Never did find it though."

Since it was so fast in flight, I assume you were referring to the four legged variety.

Best,
Rick

Good point! Yes, it was about a 40 lb. canis latrans, not the human vermin of the same name.

 

[STCM(SW)]

So, what am I to take of this?
A 135 gr Hornday critical defense is not as good?
Or a 147 gr FP Berry's is also not good enough to stop a BG?
Man, I'm confused on this 9mm thing...

 

[Boge]

I saw a coyote hit at about 25 yards in the side with a BPLE 9mm from a USBP handgun...the round hit it just back of the ribs, exiting the far side. It took off running and we tracked it for 3 miles. Never did find it though.

The 12" of penetration requirement is not "arbitrary." If you call the BRF they will explain the rationale so you can understand it.

So the person you were with was a bad shot. Even the best of ammo can't compensate for poor marksmanship. Perhaps the BRF never explained that to you.

 

[DR505]

So the person you were with was a bad shot. Even the best of ammo can't compensate for poor marksmanship. Perhaps the BRF never explained that to you.

No need to get snarky. What was that comment for? The BRF can explain, in detail, why ammo chosen for the FBI has penetration requirements of 12"-18".

 

[Doug M.]

So, what am I to take of this?
A 135 gr Hornday critical defense is not as good?
Or a 147 gr FP Berry's is also not good enough to stop a BG?
Man, I'm confused on this 9mm thing...

*
The Bureau's purchase decision likely considered more than just performance. Cost, ability to deliver, QC/reliability standards of production, etc.
Find a load that passes the standard (I've posted links to Doc Roberts' stuff repeatedly), make sure it works reliably in your pistol(s), train on tactics, marksmanship and appropriate anatomy, then drive on.