FBI's new 9mm ammo

[LtBlue425]

The FBI's protocol and minimum penetration standards are not the holy grail. They were set up after the Miami shootout so the FBI management could blame a bullet instead of pathetic training and worse tactics. Anyone who thinks different is not familiar with the FBI.

Far more realistic is the Border Patrols requirement of 9" or 10" penetration. BUT the Feebles refused to listen so the BP went out on their own. It speaks volumes about the arrogance of the Feebies desk jockeys. They reject the real world experience of the BP which has more shootings than all other Federal agencies totaled together.

I'll put more credence with the BP and other real world feedback rather than if a bullet goes 15" in gelatin.

 

[DR505]

Well, my FBI bride has had the same crappy Glock for the past 11 years so not too sure where the notion comes from that the bureau changes all that often. Must be another FBI out there that I don't know about. She has other POWs but they all came out of her bank account, not the government's. Just setting the record straight. Any other agents feel free to step in here and keep this thread accurate and respectable.
Chuck

The FBI has been with the Glock platform since they transitioned from Sigs back in 1997. They still issue Glock 22 and 23 in .40 S&W. You can get a Glock 17 or 19 issued as well. If you want to buy one, you can get a Glock 21 (not SF), a Glock 26, or a Glock 27.

I've seen a lot of FBI bashing in this thread. Sorry to see that. Some whole departments hate the FBI. I've seen some of that because the FBI works public corruption and arrests dirty cops. Ah well.

I've had cops come up to me and bash the FBI right to my face. One deputy was explaining how we hire only inept, bookish nerds who are worthless, etc. I nodded, smiled, and said that if we are in such a sorry state he should help us out and join us, so he can improve the FBI from the inside. He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!

I don't know how things are at the departments the FBI bashers come from, but here we work very closely with our Federal, State, and local counterparts...part of that Law Enforcement Community thing.

I worked closely with the USBP for a while down on the Calexico/Mexicali border area...they are a gunfighting bunch, that is for sure!

 

[CoMF]

...but at similar penetrations on bare gel the .45 cut a bit deeper with GD, and expanded better as well, and penetration was equal between the two on the radically expanding HST's, however the 230 enjoyed a great deal more expansion for the same, barely qualifying penetration.

Using the data for the Gold Dot, let's quantify how much "a bit" really is.

9mm, 124 gr. +P:
BG Pen. = 11.78" (FBI FAIL)
IWBA Pen.= 15.88" (FBI PASS)
BG Exp. = .720" or ~2.028 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .560" or ~1.577 x Cal.

9mm, 147 gr.:
BG Pen. = 12.58" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. = 16.93" (FBI PASS)
BG Exp. = .660" or ~1.859 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .540" or ~1.521 x Cal.

.45 ACP, 200 gr. +P:
BG Pen. = 10.33" (FBI FAIL)
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-14.036%
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-21.781%
IWBA Pen. = 15.20" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-4.473%
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-11.381%
BG Exp. = .819" or ~1.811 x Cal.
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = +13.750%/~-11.982%
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+24.091%/~-2.650%
IWBA Exp. = .675" or ~1.493 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+20.535%/~-5.626%
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = +25.000%/~-1.875%


.45 ACP, 230 Gr.:
BG Pen. = 13.00" (FBI PASS)
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+9.384%
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+3.338%
IWBA Pen. = 14.55" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-9.140%
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-16.357%
BG Exp. = .711" or ~1.573 x Cal.
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-1.265%/~-28.925%
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+7.727%/~-18.181%
IWBA Exp. = .675" or ~1.493 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+20.535%/~-5.626%
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = +20.000%/~-1.875%

As we can see, no one number tells the whole story. The 9mm Gold Dot offerings excel in some areas while the .45 ACP offerings excel in others. While the .45 ACP edges out the 9mm in expanded diameters, the 9mm loads turn out to be the better expanders when comparing "expansion ÷ caliber" numbers. Regardless, even the 124 gr. +P load which fails the 12" minimum penetration depth protocol still makes DogGKR's "list" because it's a robust expander when fired through intermediate barriers such as wallboard, steel, and automotive glass by virtue of it tending to retain its weight very well.

With IWBA heavy clothing, the 9mm GD's under expanded and penetrated past the .45, with the .45 actually expanding harder and cutting deeper.

The "expansion ÷ caliber" numbers above beg to differ.

Interestingly, the HST's show the .45 punching deeper and expanding more, putting the .45 as a clear winner in the HST comparison, and the GD's showing .45 better on clear gel, and an interesting question of tradable qualities on the IWBA clothing.

"Deeper"? In most cases, yes. The 147 gr. HST is only outpenetrated in bare gel by the 230 gr. +P load. As for "expanding more," let's do some math.

HST 9mm 124 gr.:
BG Exp. = .880" or ~2.478 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .580" or ~1.633 x Cal.

HST 9mm 124 gr. +P:
BG Exp. = .870" or ~2.450 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .640" or ~1.802 x Cal.

HST 9mm 147 gr.:
BG Exp. = .850" or ~2.394 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .660" or ~1.859 x Cal.

HST .45 ACP 230 gr.:
BG Exp. = .980" or ~2.168 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .800" or ~1.769 x Cal.

HST .45 ACP 230 Gr. +P:
BG Exp. = .980" or ~2.168 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .750" or ~1.659 x Cal.

Except in the case of the standard velocity 124 gr. load, the 9mm loads once again demonstrate better expansion than their .45 ACP counterparts. Additionally, the 147 gr. load passed the minimum penetration depth requirement in both BG and IWBA 4-layer denim testing. It also matched or exceeded the .45 ACP loads for penetration in steel, wallboard, plywood, and authomobile glass tests. Again, no one number tells the whole story.

My point still stands, that if the 147 expands to the same width as the 230, the 230 will punch deeper...

That's due to sectional density. Making any 9mm load expand like the best .45 loads would make them underpenetrate, which is undesirable. And yet, a well-designed and engineered 9mm performs admirably when fired through intermediate barriers. The penetration and retained weight numbers attest to that fact.

...and if they penetrate the same, you will get a bigger hole out of the 230.

Have any scientific evidence to show that bigger holes cause physiological stops faster than slightly smaller ones? We're talking differences of a tenth of an inch in most cases.

Simply put, the .45 will crush a wider path of the same distance, or a deeper path of the same width.

Not always. In some cases, the .45 doesn't penetrate as much as other loads, which reduces wound volume.

Apples to apples, the .45 comes out ahead.

In certain areas this is without dispute, but not ALL areas. For example, the .45 ACP more often than not falls behind the 9mm and .40 S&W in intermediate barrier testing if you're comparing penetration depths.

Find other research on other bullet types, especially improved bullets that are not designed to so radically expand, and you will continue to find similar results.

When time permits, I intend to compare the differences within the Winchester Ranger lines (e.g. Ranger-T, Ranger Bonded), but right now, my head hurts from doing all this math so you'll just have to wait.

 

[LtBlue425]

The FBI has been with the Glock platform since they transitioned from Sigs back in 1997. They still issue Glock 22 and 23 in .40 S&W. You can get a Glock 17 or 19 issued as well. If you want to buy one, you can get a Glock 21 (not SF), a Glock 26, or a Glock 27.

I've seen a lot of FBI bashing in this thread. Sorry to see that. Some whole departments hate the FBI. I've seen some of that because the FBI works public corruption and arrests dirty cops. Ah well.

I've had cops come up to me and bash the FBI right to my face. One deputy was explaining how we hire only inept, bookish nerds who are worthless, etc. I nodded, smiled, and said that if we are in such a sorry state he should help us out and join us, so he can improve the FBI from the inside. He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!

I don't know how things are at the departments the FBI bashers come from, but here we work very closely with our Federal, State, and local counterparts...part of that Law Enforcement Community thing.

I worked closely with the USBP for a while down on the Calexico/Mexicali border area...they are a gunfighting bunch, that is for sure!

Sorry to hurt feelings but I've dealt a lot with the Feds, especially FBI, for most of my 30+ years. My remarks are mostly aimed at FBI management and the "culture" they perpetrate, tainting all aspects of the agency. You don't want me to go into detail. Every outfit has its bad apples but the FBI indoctrinates their agents from the start at the Academy, as one told me to my face..."I'm from the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world"....and she was dead serious. Even other Federal agents have issues with the FBI attitude. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with investigating bad cops either.

 

[fdw]

The .40, 45, and .357 Sig all can do more than the 9mm can, and to claim parity is dangerous. The fanboyism in this thread enraged me enough to write all this giant post.

I find the two above statements the most interesting in your post. And since I'm much more of a photographer than a shooter let me relate the first statement to photography.

Saying the .40, 45 and .357 Sig all can do more than the 9mm can is like saying the Canon DSLR can do more than the Nikon DSLR. Neither can do anything at all by themselves. The end result comes from the person behind the lens just like the person pulling the trigger. In other words there are no magic bullets just like there are no magic cameras. I shoot Nikon, not because it is better but because I am much more comfortable with it.

If I'm in dangers way I'd prefer the 9, simply because I can put more rounds on target faster and more accurately than the other calibers you mention.

Finally:

You were enraged by fanboyism?

 

[Duckford]

Mr. CoMF, your ability to use irrelevant statistics and rationalize is astounding, and I am quite impressed. You have forgotten that caliber multiplications are absolutely useless and irrelevant, only the final expansion diameter, meaning the long winded percentages you listed and calculated are of no value whatsoever. You took the time to figure out a method to create irrelevant data to ignore the real and relevant data. It doesn't matter if a .22 expands to .66 of an inch and punches a 12 inch path, its still not as damaging as .50 bullet that expands to .75 inch and punches 14. A 9mm expands more by percentage of its original size than a 12 gauge shotgun slug; are you inferring that the 9mm hollow points are as effective, nay, far more effective in expansion and effect than a 1 oz. shotgun slug?

And yes, expansion counts, otherwise, why would we have expanding rounds int he first place? With FMJ's superior feeding characteristics, why would anyone use hollow points or soft points? Because, if a bullet hits a blood vessel or organ, you want to create the maximum amount of damage possible.

 

[CoMF]

Mr. CoMF, your ability to use irrelevant statistics and rationalize is astounding, and I am quite impressed.

If you say so.

You have forgotten that caliber multiplications are absolutely useless and irrelevant, only the final expansion diameter, meaning the long winded percentages you listed and calculated are of no value whatsoever.

You've stated that the .45 ACP "expands better." One way of determining how "well" a bullet expands is by calculating the expansion to caliber ratio, or "X" times caliber. I simply put your assertion to the test and did the math. If you're unhappy that the results don't support your claims, that's not my problem. The numbers don't lie.

You took the time to figure out a method to create irrelevant data to ignore the real and relevant data.

I'm sure you feel that way.

It doesn't matter if a .22 expands to .66 of an inch and punches a 12 inch path, its still not as damaging as .50 bullet that expands to .75 inch and punches 14.

Again, do you have any scientific evidence that a "bigger hole" causes a faster physiological stop than a smaller one? If you've ever read SA Urey Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," you would know that the "problem" was not that the holes were "too small," it's that they weren't penetrating deeply enough to reach vital organs deep within the body!

A 9mm expands more by percentage of its original size than a 12 gauge shotgun slug; are you inferring that the 9mm hollow points are as effective, nay, far more effective in expansion and effect than a 1 oz. shotgun slug?

Who's to say? The human body is unpredictable. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you'd find accounts of OIS's where the perp took a solid, center mass hit from a 1 oz. slug and kept on fighting.

And yes, expansion counts, otherwise, why would we have expanding rounds int he first place?

No, it's to be considered a bonus, IF and when it happens.

With FMJ's superior feeding characteristics, why would anyone use hollow points or soft points? Because, if a bullet hits a blood vessel or organ, you want to create the maximum amount of damage possible.

Nice straw man you've got there.

 

[LtBlue425]

FMJ is the worst possible bullet type you can choose, regardless if its .32 or .45. Performance so pathetic it doesn't really matter if its 9mm FMJ or 45 FMJ. Both will slide through soft body tissue with minimal disruption.

These observations are not based on fanboy regurgitation from their favorite ballistics "expert". These are my observations from the crime scenes and autopsy room.

 

[DR505]

Sorry to hurt feelings but I've dealt a lot with the Feds, especially FBI, for most of my 30+ years. My remarks are mostly aimed at FBI management and the "culture" they perpetrate, tainting all aspects of the agency. You don't want me to go into detail. Every outfit has its bad apples but the FBI indoctrinates their agents from the start at the Academy, as one told me to my face..."I'm from the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world"....and she was dead serious. Even other Federal agents have issues with the FBI attitude. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with investigating bad cops either.

Well, you didn't hurt my feelings. I've got thick skin and have been around the block more than once. I've been to more than one LE academy and worked all over the country and around the world. I've taught LE classes in Africa, Europe, and Asia, so have seen the good and not so good LE agencies from everywhere. I've always tried to help them, not bring them down. I was just sorry to see so much bashing and bitter small-mindedness. It is unnecessary and counter-productive. You paint with an EXCEPTIONALLY broad brush, covering 35,000 employees of a fairly decent organization. No person is perfect. No organization is perfect.

As for the lady agent who said what you claim, she will learn, or she will have a difficult career. BTW - every academy tries to instill pride and esprit de corps in their recruits.

Sorry for the thread drift.

I would love to see the FBI get new gear before I finally retire!

 

[Boge]

...He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!...

Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE. No one will state as such on the clock for obvious reasons, as well you won't either since you want your pension. How can any agency be expected to act efficiently when daily they cannot voice, let alone address, the bitter truth?

 

[DR505]

Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE. No one will state as such on the clock for obvious reasons, as well you won't either since you want your pension. How can any agency be expected to act efficiently when daily they cannot voice, let alone address, the bitter truth?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean. Be specific...how has "Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE"? That is one heck of a statement. So every Federal LE agency is "ruined"? The hyperbole on this thread is amazing!

In my new agent class 80% of the class was former LE, Military, or both. Many of the classes going through today are the same make up.

 

[Boge]

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean. Be specific...how has "Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE"?...

You're either kidding or are the beneficiary of such. No one could possibly be that coy. Been to the Post Office lately? The Fed. Gov't uses quotas for hiring and has for decades now. There are Border Patrol agents that can barely speak English as a first language. The Military lowered the bar years ago. At least half the Federal employees I ever dealt with are unfit to mow lawns for a living. I am on the Border and it is screwed up beyond belief.

Former Border Protection Insider Alleges Corruption, Distortion In Agency : NPR

 

[Hapworth]

Some interesting issues for discussion coming up here, but that have nothing to do with the thread subject...and also are dangerously close to verboten on this forum.

Let's keep a good thread from getting locked...

 

[DR505]

You're either kidding or are the beneficiary of such. No one could possibly be that coy.

Well, I'm a late middle-aged white guy, so I guess I didn't benefit. That leaves....

 

[29-1]

Some interesting issues for discussion coming up here, but that have nothing to do with the thread subject...and also are dangerously close to verboten on this forum.

Let's keep a good thread from getting locked...

Exactly. This particular thread which started off innocently enough, is now one that does not represent what this forum is all about; a place for S&W collectors to gather in a non-threatening environment to discuss all things S&W, but in a MUTUALLY RESPECTFUL manner. Just about everything I've learned about collecting S&W came from being a member of this forum, especially after Lee Jarrett became the owner and proprietor. I too am surprised that this thread hasn't been stopped by now. I salute the FBI agents who've commented in this thread for their restraint in not responding in like manner to those here who've made some rather negative reamarks but more so for their service to our nation, day in and day out, 24/7. Most people do not know that FBI agents are on call night and day 24/7 and are never really "off duty." To insinuate that they are desk warriors only and to slurr female agents as incompetent, comes only from an uninformed place of ignorance and stupidity and with some jealousy too I suspect. There's a role for all of us in this increasingly dangerous world we live in and the more respect and support we give to each of those, male and female, performing in those roles be it at a desk, in our home towns, or to those closer to the spear point in combat, the better off we'll all be. JMTC
Chuck

 

[DR505]

I salute the FBI agents who've commented in this thread for their restraint in not responding in like manner to those here who've made some rather negative reamrks but more so for their service to our nation, day in and day out, 24/7. Most people do not know that FBI agents are on call night and day 24/7 and are never really "off duty."
Chuck

Chuck,

We have a saying...the drinking age for an FBI agent is 57 (that's mandated retirement). Thanks for the positive comments.

 

[DR505]

BTW - If any Law Enforcement Agency wants copies of the testing the FBI has performed on all manner of ammunition, call the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico: 703-632-1000. You will be required to submit a request on Department Letterhead and sign and Non Disclosure Agreement.

 

[shil]

Interesting thread.

However, since my Beretta M9, Colt 1911 9mm, 940, 3913, 6906, and 6946 all seem to eat the 124 grain Gold Dot (Standard and +P) like candy, I don't see myself changing to whatever the FBI changes to.

The Gold Dot's and Cor Bon DPX's have a good enough record. Marksmanship is what we should be concerned with.

Definitely. With marksmanship, the .357 Magnum revolver is still king. Witness: nearby large city; some street cops STILL carrying revolvers by choice. Response as to why: various versions of "I can hit with it every time and it works first time, every time". Interesting. This is not intended to be in anyway critical of 9mm users. I love my sixguns but will never part with my Browning Hi-power!

 

[doc84]

BTW - If any Law Enforcement Agency wants copies of the testing the FBI has performed on all manner of ammunition, call the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico: 703-632-1000. You will be required to submit a request on Department Letterhead and sign and Non Disclosure Agreement.

This is exceptional information. We request and review it every few years. The expertise of that unit is second to none. When my agency was making the move from 40 to 9, I called and spoke with a exceptionally gracious agent. He answered all of my ammo and ballistic wounding questions. The fact that they are willing to share all of this information with their brothers and sisters, free of charge speaks to their professionalism and sense of "team".

 

[Model 15-4ever]

I worked with quite a few FBI agents looking for a couple of robbery suspects and one incident that sticks in my mind was an agent that only had 3 rounds of oo buck for his 870 because the rest of his ammo was buried under his softball equipment in the trunk of his government vehicle. Most agents working at the FBI have no need for sidearms because they sit behind a desk and never leave the office. Everytime I was in their office no one that I saw was armed. I'll bet that all of the FBI agents combined fired less than 100 rounds last year in firefights.

20 years ago I went through the FBI's firearms instructors course that lasted a week. We were watching the so called expert show us how to shoot slugs at a full size b-27 target at 50's with an older 870 which had a 20" plain barrel with the bead on the barrel. After 5 shots, all of which missed the target, he looked dumbfounded as to why he missed. I suggetsed that he aim at the belt buckle and he hit the target all 5 times. Anyone that had used one of the older guns knew to shoot at the belt buckle because they shot high which is why Remington added a small ramp. This guy was their expert and he was a boob.

The agent teaching the class told us that the FBI used to let them have as much ammo as they wanted until someone he worked with was caught selling ammo and was given some jail time.

I am sure that somewhere in the FBI there are units that need to be armed but most don't for their everyday tasks.

Your ignorance.. or more likely fabrication… is breathtaking. I have worked with dozens of FBI agents over the years, including their firearms instructors. They are all armed, all the the time (they have rules concerning displaying firearms inside their offices). They train more frequently than most law enforcement agencies, and their qualification standards are higher. As an agency they devote resources to selecting and testing ammunition and firearms that few if any can match. All the agents I worked with handled firearms professionally and effectively during the arrests and searches I assisted with. You are talking out of your posterior.