FBI's new 9mm ammo

[LtBlue425]

The FBI's protocol and minimum penetration standards are not the holy grail. They were set up after the Miami shootout so the FBI management could blame a bullet instead of pathetic training and worse tactics. Anyone who thinks different is not familiar with the FBI.

Far more realistic is the Border Patrols requirement of 9" or 10" penetration. BUT the Feebles refused to listen so the BP went out on their own. It speaks volumes about the arrogance of the Feebies desk jockeys. They reject the real world experience of the BP which has more shootings than all other Federal agencies totaled together.

I'll put more credence with the BP and other real world feedback rather than if a bullet goes 15" in gelatin.

 

[DR505]

Well, my FBI bride has had the same crappy Glock for the past 11 years so not too sure where the notion comes from that the bureau changes all that often. Must be another FBI out there that I don't know about. She has other POWs but they all came out of her bank account, not the government's. Just setting the record straight. Any other agents feel free to step in here and keep this thread accurate and respectable.
Chuck

The FBI has been with the Glock platform since they transitioned from Sigs back in 1997. They still issue Glock 22 and 23 in .40 S&W. You can get a Glock 17 or 19 issued as well. If you want to buy one, you can get a Glock 21 (not SF), a Glock 26, or a Glock 27.

I've seen a lot of FBI bashing in this thread. Sorry to see that. Some whole departments hate the FBI. I've seen some of that because the FBI works public corruption and arrests dirty cops. Ah well.

I've had cops come up to me and bash the FBI right to my face. One deputy was explaining how we hire only inept, bookish nerds who are worthless, etc. I nodded, smiled, and said that if we are in such a sorry state he should help us out and join us, so he can improve the FBI from the inside. He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!

I don't know how things are at the departments the FBI bashers come from, but here we work very closely with our Federal, State, and local counterparts...part of that Law Enforcement Community thing.

I worked closely with the USBP for a while down on the Calexico/Mexicali border area...they are a gunfighting bunch, that is for sure!

 

[CoMF]

...but at similar penetrations on bare gel the .45 cut a bit deeper with GD, and expanded better as well, and penetration was equal between the two on the radically expanding HST's, however the 230 enjoyed a great deal more expansion for the same, barely qualifying penetration.

Using the data for the Gold Dot, let's quantify how much "a bit" really is.

9mm, 124 gr. +P:
BG Pen. = 11.78" (FBI FAIL)
IWBA Pen.= 15.88" (FBI PASS)
BG Exp. = .720" or ~2.028 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .560" or ~1.577 x Cal.

9mm, 147 gr.:
BG Pen. = 12.58" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. = 16.93" (FBI PASS)
BG Exp. = .660" or ~1.859 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .540" or ~1.521 x Cal.

.45 ACP, 200 gr. +P:
BG Pen. = 10.33" (FBI FAIL)
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-14.036%
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-21.781%
IWBA Pen. = 15.20" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-4.473%
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-11.381%
BG Exp. = .819" or ~1.811 x Cal.
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = +13.750%/~-11.982%
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+24.091%/~-2.650%
IWBA Exp. = .675" or ~1.493 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+20.535%/~-5.626%
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = +25.000%/~-1.875%


.45 ACP, 230 Gr.:
BG Pen. = 13.00" (FBI PASS)
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+9.384%
BG Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+3.338%
IWBA Pen. = 14.55" (FBI PASS)
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-9.140%
IWBA Pen. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~-16.357%
BG Exp. = .711" or ~1.573 x Cal.
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~-1.265%/~-28.925%
BG Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = ~+7.727%/~-18.181%
IWBA Exp. = .675" or ~1.493 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 124 gr. = ~+20.535%/~-5.626%
IWBA Exp. vs. 9mm 147 gr. = +20.000%/~-1.875%

As we can see, no one number tells the whole story. The 9mm Gold Dot offerings excel in some areas while the .45 ACP offerings excel in others. While the .45 ACP edges out the 9mm in expanded diameters, the 9mm loads turn out to be the better expanders when comparing "expansion ÷ caliber" numbers. Regardless, even the 124 gr. +P load which fails the 12" minimum penetration depth protocol still makes DogGKR's "list" because it's a robust expander when fired through intermediate barriers such as wallboard, steel, and automotive glass by virtue of it tending to retain its weight very well.

With IWBA heavy clothing, the 9mm GD's under expanded and penetrated past the .45, with the .45 actually expanding harder and cutting deeper.

The "expansion ÷ caliber" numbers above beg to differ.

Interestingly, the HST's show the .45 punching deeper and expanding more, putting the .45 as a clear winner in the HST comparison, and the GD's showing .45 better on clear gel, and an interesting question of tradable qualities on the IWBA clothing.

"Deeper"? In most cases, yes. The 147 gr. HST is only outpenetrated in bare gel by the 230 gr. +P load. As for "expanding more," let's do some math.

HST 9mm 124 gr.:
BG Exp. = .880" or ~2.478 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .580" or ~1.633 x Cal.

HST 9mm 124 gr. +P:
BG Exp. = .870" or ~2.450 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .640" or ~1.802 x Cal.

HST 9mm 147 gr.:
BG Exp. = .850" or ~2.394 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .660" or ~1.859 x Cal.

HST .45 ACP 230 gr.:
BG Exp. = .980" or ~2.168 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .800" or ~1.769 x Cal.

HST .45 ACP 230 Gr. +P:
BG Exp. = .980" or ~2.168 x Cal.
IWBA Exp. = .750" or ~1.659 x Cal.

Except in the case of the standard velocity 124 gr. load, the 9mm loads once again demonstrate better expansion than their .45 ACP counterparts. Additionally, the 147 gr. load passed the minimum penetration depth requirement in both BG and IWBA 4-layer denim testing. It also matched or exceeded the .45 ACP loads for penetration in steel, wallboard, plywood, and authomobile glass tests. Again, no one number tells the whole story.

My point still stands, that if the 147 expands to the same width as the 230, the 230 will punch deeper...

That's due to sectional density. Making any 9mm load expand like the best .45 loads would make them underpenetrate, which is undesirable. And yet, a well-designed and engineered 9mm performs admirably when fired through intermediate barriers. The penetration and retained weight numbers attest to that fact.

...and if they penetrate the same, you will get a bigger hole out of the 230.

Have any scientific evidence to show that bigger holes cause physiological stops faster than slightly smaller ones? We're talking differences of a tenth of an inch in most cases.

Simply put, the .45 will crush a wider path of the same distance, or a deeper path of the same width.

Not always. In some cases, the .45 doesn't penetrate as much as other loads, which reduces wound volume.

Apples to apples, the .45 comes out ahead.

In certain areas this is without dispute, but not ALL areas. For example, the .45 ACP more often than not falls behind the 9mm and .40 S&W in intermediate barrier testing if you're comparing penetration depths.

Find other research on other bullet types, especially improved bullets that are not designed to so radically expand, and you will continue to find similar results.

When time permits, I intend to compare the differences within the Winchester Ranger lines (e.g. Ranger-T, Ranger Bonded), but right now, my head hurts from doing all this math so you'll just have to wait.

 

[LtBlue425]

The FBI has been with the Glock platform since they transitioned from Sigs back in 1997. They still issue Glock 22 and 23 in .40 S&W. You can get a Glock 17 or 19 issued as well. If you want to buy one, you can get a Glock 21 (not SF), a Glock 26, or a Glock 27.

I've seen a lot of FBI bashing in this thread. Sorry to see that. Some whole departments hate the FBI. I've seen some of that because the FBI works public corruption and arrests dirty cops. Ah well.

I've had cops come up to me and bash the FBI right to my face. One deputy was explaining how we hire only inept, bookish nerds who are worthless, etc. I nodded, smiled, and said that if we are in such a sorry state he should help us out and join us, so he can improve the FBI from the inside. He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!

I don't know how things are at the departments the FBI bashers come from, but here we work very closely with our Federal, State, and local counterparts...part of that Law Enforcement Community thing.

I worked closely with the USBP for a while down on the Calexico/Mexicali border area...they are a gunfighting bunch, that is for sure!

Sorry to hurt feelings but I've dealt a lot with the Feds, especially FBI, for most of my 30+ years. My remarks are mostly aimed at FBI management and the "culture" they perpetrate, tainting all aspects of the agency. You don't want me to go into detail. Every outfit has its bad apples but the FBI indoctrinates their agents from the start at the Academy, as one told me to my face..."I'm from the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world"....and she was dead serious. Even other Federal agents have issues with the FBI attitude. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with investigating bad cops either.

 

[fdw]

The .40, 45, and .357 Sig all can do more than the 9mm can, and to claim parity is dangerous. The fanboyism in this thread enraged me enough to write all this giant post.

I find the two above statements the most interesting in your post. And since I'm much more of a photographer than a shooter let me relate the first statement to photography.

Saying the .40, 45 and .357 Sig all can do more than the 9mm can is like saying the Canon DSLR can do more than the Nikon DSLR. Neither can do anything at all by themselves. The end result comes from the person behind the lens just like the person pulling the trigger. In other words there are no magic bullets just like there are no magic cameras. I shoot Nikon, not because it is better but because I am much more comfortable with it.

If I'm in dangers way I'd prefer the 9, simply because I can put more rounds on target faster and more accurately than the other calibers you mention.

Finally:

You were enraged by fanboyism?

 

[Duckford]

Mr. CoMF, your ability to use irrelevant statistics and rationalize is astounding, and I am quite impressed. You have forgotten that caliber multiplications are absolutely useless and irrelevant, only the final expansion diameter, meaning the long winded percentages you listed and calculated are of no value whatsoever. You took the time to figure out a method to create irrelevant data to ignore the real and relevant data. It doesn't matter if a .22 expands to .66 of an inch and punches a 12 inch path, its still not as damaging as .50 bullet that expands to .75 inch and punches 14. A 9mm expands more by percentage of its original size than a 12 gauge shotgun slug; are you inferring that the 9mm hollow points are as effective, nay, far more effective in expansion and effect than a 1 oz. shotgun slug?

And yes, expansion counts, otherwise, why would we have expanding rounds int he first place? With FMJ's superior feeding characteristics, why would anyone use hollow points or soft points? Because, if a bullet hits a blood vessel or organ, you want to create the maximum amount of damage possible.

 

[CoMF]

Mr. CoMF, your ability to use irrelevant statistics and rationalize is astounding, and I am quite impressed.

If you say so.

You have forgotten that caliber multiplications are absolutely useless and irrelevant, only the final expansion diameter, meaning the long winded percentages you listed and calculated are of no value whatsoever.

You've stated that the .45 ACP "expands better." One way of determining how "well" a bullet expands is by calculating the expansion to caliber ratio, or "X" times caliber. I simply put your assertion to the test and did the math. If you're unhappy that the results don't support your claims, that's not my problem. The numbers don't lie.

You took the time to figure out a method to create irrelevant data to ignore the real and relevant data.

I'm sure you feel that way.

It doesn't matter if a .22 expands to .66 of an inch and punches a 12 inch path, its still not as damaging as .50 bullet that expands to .75 inch and punches 14.

Again, do you have any scientific evidence that a "bigger hole" causes a faster physiological stop than a smaller one? If you've ever read SA Urey Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," you would know that the "problem" was not that the holes were "too small," it's that they weren't penetrating deeply enough to reach vital organs deep within the body!

A 9mm expands more by percentage of its original size than a 12 gauge shotgun slug; are you inferring that the 9mm hollow points are as effective, nay, far more effective in expansion and effect than a 1 oz. shotgun slug?

Who's to say? The human body is unpredictable. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you'd find accounts of OIS's where the perp took a solid, center mass hit from a 1 oz. slug and kept on fighting.

And yes, expansion counts, otherwise, why would we have expanding rounds int he first place?

No, it's to be considered a bonus, IF and when it happens.

With FMJ's superior feeding characteristics, why would anyone use hollow points or soft points? Because, if a bullet hits a blood vessel or organ, you want to create the maximum amount of damage possible.

Nice straw man you've got there.

 

[LtBlue425]

FMJ is the worst possible bullet type you can choose, regardless if its .32 or .45. Performance so pathetic it doesn't really matter if its 9mm FMJ or 45 FMJ. Both will slide through soft body tissue with minimal disruption.

These observations are not based on fanboy regurgitation from their favorite ballistics "expert". These are my observations from the crime scenes and autopsy room.

 

[DR505]

Sorry to hurt feelings but I've dealt a lot with the Feds, especially FBI, for most of my 30+ years. My remarks are mostly aimed at FBI management and the "culture" they perpetrate, tainting all aspects of the agency. You don't want me to go into detail. Every outfit has its bad apples but the FBI indoctrinates their agents from the start at the Academy, as one told me to my face..."I'm from the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world"....and she was dead serious. Even other Federal agents have issues with the FBI attitude. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with investigating bad cops either.

Well, you didn't hurt my feelings. I've got thick skin and have been around the block more than once. I've been to more than one LE academy and worked all over the country and around the world. I've taught LE classes in Africa, Europe, and Asia, so have seen the good and not so good LE agencies from everywhere. I've always tried to help them, not bring them down. I was just sorry to see so much bashing and bitter small-mindedness. It is unnecessary and counter-productive. You paint with an EXCEPTIONALLY broad brush, covering 35,000 employees of a fairly decent organization. No person is perfect. No organization is perfect.

As for the lady agent who said what you claim, she will learn, or she will have a difficult career. BTW - every academy tries to instill pride and esprit de corps in their recruits.

Sorry for the thread drift.

I would love to see the FBI get new gear before I finally retire!

 

[Boge]

...He shook his head and said he had applied, but didn't make the cut. The two NCIS agents with me laughed so hard I thought the deputy was going to take a swing at them!...

Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE. No one will state as such on the clock for obvious reasons, as well you won't either since you want your pension. How can any agency be expected to act efficiently when daily they cannot voice, let alone address, the bitter truth?

 

[DR505]

Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE. No one will state as such on the clock for obvious reasons, as well you won't either since you want your pension. How can any agency be expected to act efficiently when daily they cannot voice, let alone address, the bitter truth?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean. Be specific...how has "Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE"? That is one heck of a statement. So every Federal LE agency is "ruined"? The hyperbole on this thread is amazing!

In my new agent class 80% of the class was former LE, Military, or both. Many of the classes going through today are the same make up.

 

[Boge]

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean. Be specific...how has "Affirmative Action has ruined Federal level LE"?...

You're either kidding or are the beneficiary of such. No one could possibly be that coy. Been to the Post Office lately? The Fed. Gov't uses quotas for hiring and has for decades now. There are Border Patrol agents that can barely speak English as a first language. The Military lowered the bar years ago. At least half the Federal employees I ever dealt with are unfit to mow lawns for a living. I am on the Border and it is screwed up beyond belief.

Former Border Protection Insider Alleges Corruption, Distortion In Agency : NPR

 

[Hapworth]

Some interesting issues for discussion coming up here, but that have nothing to do with the thread subject...and also are dangerously close to verboten on this forum.

Let's keep a good thread from getting locked...

 

[DR505]

You're either kidding or are the beneficiary of such. No one could possibly be that coy.

Well, I'm a late middle-aged white guy, so I guess I didn't benefit. That leaves....

 

[29-1]

Some interesting issues for discussion coming up here, but that have nothing to do with the thread subject...and also are dangerously close to verboten on this forum.

Let's keep a good thread from getting locked...

Exactly. This particular thread which started off innocently enough, is now one that does not represent what this forum is all about; a place for S&W collectors to gather in a non-threatening environment to discuss all things S&W, but in a MUTUALLY RESPECTFUL manner. Just about everything I've learned about collecting S&W came from being a member of this forum, especially after Lee Jarrett became the owner and proprietor. I too am surprised that this thread hasn't been stopped by now. I salute the FBI agents who've commented in this thread for their restraint in not responding in like manner to those here who've made some rather negative reamarks but more so for their service to our nation, day in and day out, 24/7. Most people do not know that FBI agents are on call night and day 24/7 and are never really "off duty." To insinuate that they are desk warriors only and to slurr female agents as incompetent, comes only from an uninformed place of ignorance and stupidity and with some jealousy too I suspect. There's a role for all of us in this increasingly dangerous world we live in and the more respect and support we give to each of those, male and female, performing in those roles be it at a desk, in our home towns, or to those closer to the spear point in combat, the better off we'll all be. JMTC
Chuck

 

[DR505]

I salute the FBI agents who've commented in this thread for their restraint in not responding in like manner to those here who've made some rather negative reamrks but more so for their service to our nation, day in and day out, 24/7. Most people do not know that FBI agents are on call night and day 24/7 and are never really "off duty."
Chuck

Chuck,

We have a saying...the drinking age for an FBI agent is 57 (that's mandated retirement). Thanks for the positive comments.

 

[DR505]

BTW - If any Law Enforcement Agency wants copies of the testing the FBI has performed on all manner of ammunition, call the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico: 703-632-1000. You will be required to submit a request on Department Letterhead and sign and Non Disclosure Agreement.

 

[shil]

Interesting thread.

However, since my Beretta M9, Colt 1911 9mm, 940, 3913, 6906, and 6946 all seem to eat the 124 grain Gold Dot (Standard and +P) like candy, I don't see myself changing to whatever the FBI changes to.

The Gold Dot's and Cor Bon DPX's have a good enough record. Marksmanship is what we should be concerned with.

Definitely. With marksmanship, the .357 Magnum revolver is still king. Witness: nearby large city; some street cops STILL carrying revolvers by choice. Response as to why: various versions of "I can hit with it every time and it works first time, every time". Interesting. This is not intended to be in anyway critical of 9mm users. I love my sixguns but will never part with my Browning Hi-power!

 

[doc84]

BTW - If any Law Enforcement Agency wants copies of the testing the FBI has performed on all manner of ammunition, call the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico: 703-632-1000. You will be required to submit a request on Department Letterhead and sign and Non Disclosure Agreement.

This is exceptional information. We request and review it every few years. The expertise of that unit is second to none. When my agency was making the move from 40 to 9, I called and spoke with a exceptionally gracious agent. He answered all of my ammo and ballistic wounding questions. The fact that they are willing to share all of this information with their brothers and sisters, free of charge speaks to their professionalism and sense of "team".

 

[Model 15-4ever]

I worked with quite a few FBI agents looking for a couple of robbery suspects and one incident that sticks in my mind was an agent that only had 3 rounds of oo buck for his 870 because the rest of his ammo was buried under his softball equipment in the trunk of his government vehicle. Most agents working at the FBI have no need for sidearms because they sit behind a desk and never leave the office. Everytime I was in their office no one that I saw was armed. I'll bet that all of the FBI agents combined fired less than 100 rounds last year in firefights.

20 years ago I went through the FBI's firearms instructors course that lasted a week. We were watching the so called expert show us how to shoot slugs at a full size b-27 target at 50's with an older 870 which had a 20" plain barrel with the bead on the barrel. After 5 shots, all of which missed the target, he looked dumbfounded as to why he missed. I suggetsed that he aim at the belt buckle and he hit the target all 5 times. Anyone that had used one of the older guns knew to shoot at the belt buckle because they shot high which is why Remington added a small ramp. This guy was their expert and he was a boob.

The agent teaching the class told us that the FBI used to let them have as much ammo as they wanted until someone he worked with was caught selling ammo and was given some jail time.

I am sure that somewhere in the FBI there are units that need to be armed but most don't for their everyday tasks.

Your ignorance.. or more likely fabrication… is breathtaking. I have worked with dozens of FBI agents over the years, including their firearms instructors. They are all armed, all the the time (they have rules concerning displaying firearms inside their offices). They train more frequently than most law enforcement agencies, and their qualification standards are higher. As an agency they devote resources to selecting and testing ammunition and firearms that few if any can match. All the agents I worked with handled firearms professionally and effectively during the arrests and searches I assisted with. You are talking out of your posterior.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

The FBI's protocol and minimum penetration standards are not the holy grail. They were set up after the Miami shootout so the FBI management could blame a bullet instead of pathetic training and worse tactics. Anyone who thinks different is not familiar with the FBI.

Far more realistic is the Border Patrols requirement of 9" or 10" penetration. BUT the Feebles refused to listen so the BP went out on their own. It speaks volumes about the arrogance of the Feebies desk jockeys. They reject the real world experience of the BP which has more shootings than all other Federal agencies totaled together.

I'll put more credence with the BP and other real world feedback rather than if a bullet goes 15" in gelatin.

People can disagree on what is adequate for their, or their agencies, needs or situations. What the FBI has done is set a standard for their own needs. They make clear that others might have different standards. But most agencies have determined that the FBI standards and testing are correct, and meet their own needs as determined by street results.

As for your opinions... I could use your kind of bias and say that the Border Patrol shoots skinny Mexican rock throwers in the desert, who hide behind sagebrush, so 9" is plenty. But that would be the disingenuous. Sorry you've had a bad experience with the FBI, whatever your personal reasons for attacking them are. Most of the LE professionals around here that work with them don't share your views, or use your silly slurs. Haters just gotta hate.

 

[Malaki7]

Well, my FBI bride has had the same crappy Glock for the past 11 years so not too sure where the notion comes from that the bureau changes all that often. Must be another FBI out there that I don't know about. She has other POWs but they all came out of her bank account, not the government's. Just setting the record straight. Any other agents feel free to step in here and keep this thread accurate and respectable.
Chuck

Thank you for sharing some actual facts. I was also getting worked up reading the previous posts. I also work for the same agency. My first glock 22 was 13 years old. I got it when it was 7 years old. The only reason I got a new one was because they were upgrading to Gen 3's. I've had my current one for 8 years. If you have already been issued a glock 40 then it will not be replaced. New agents coming from the Academy will be issued the 9mm. This should put some of the BS to rest.

We are very fortunate to get updated magazines on a regular basis. We all know that a magazine is the cause for most malfunctions. It seems like every year they are tweaking them. The last big change to magazines happened when we switched from the 165 gr to the more powerful 180 gr round.

I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT.

I'm going to cut this short because it's already getting too long. I recently read a paper from the ballistics section which goes into the whole 9mm vs 40 vs 45 debate. I wish I could post it because it is relevant to everything that has been brought up on this forum but I'm sure it would be a no-no. Be safe

 

[shawn mccarver]

This particular thread which started off innocently enough, . . . .

I started this thread because anything the FBI does in terms of ammo selection or pistol selection is "big news."

I am not an agent, nor do I play one on TV. Two of my college friends, however, have been with the Bureau for so long now that retirement is "just around the corner." Through them, I have met and associated with many FBI agents, and I have, without exception, found each to be "good people."

The FBI spends untold dollars to test ammo, and they will share that information, as stated, without charge, to requesting agencies. Like their results or methods or not, no one can correctly accuse the FBI of not following "scientific method" in its testing, which are conducted to exacting standards related to what the FBI has determined are its needs. The tests can be repeated and verified.

I also wish that the personal attacks on the FBI and its agents would be scaled back so that we can discuss the ammo question at hand in a civil way.

To you folks on this Forum who are FBI agents, I have not met you in person, but I have read and enjoy your posts, and I want you to know that I, and many, many others here appreciate what each of you do, and I am grateful for it.

Thank you.

PS - I love Eliza's response about HER nose ring!!!

 

[LtBlue425]

Cause no one else is dumb enough to mandate a 12lb trigger. I was in the NYPD academy at the time they had Glock factory people at Rodmans Neck (NYPD's main firing range) trying to replicate the problem. Most of them agreed it had to do with "making it do something it wasn't designed to do" with the extra heavy triggers. It was about a year later, everyone went to the speer ammo.

Ahh...my agency management was! Someone up the food chain figured NYPD had it figured so we'd just copy them. Wish we had video of the training classes as the entire dept went through the transition. No wonder the ranges have holes everywhere. I actually shot it very well but I'd been shooting a D/A revolver for many years plus PPC competition.

What chaps my behind is our brass didn't bother to investigate whether the 9mm 147 sub-sonic was any good, until after an OIS. Then they got hussling and calling other agencies (yep same problem) then did gel testing. By that time we'd gotten a kickass chief who lit a blowtorch under some rear ends. Within a few months we had new Glock .40's with 165 Gold Dot. Amazing how well some people can perform if they're worried about their jobs.

 

[IAhunter]

There was some inaccurate info post above regarding USBP ammo. If 115 grain +P 9mm was issued, it was prior to 1992, and didn't last long, and issuance of that ammo for duty has long since ceased. From 1992 to about 1996 when we transitioned to .40 S&W, the DUTY 9mm load was Federal 124 gr. +P+ Hydrashok for agents authorized personally owned 9mm pistols. Issue guns were 357 magnum, and the majority of our agents carried issued revolvers.

Transition dates to the .40 varied depending upon location, but by 1997 nearly all had transitioned to the .40. Ammo was 155 gr. JHP by Remington, Winchester, or Federal. In the last couple of years, we switched to the 180 Federal HST, and no 9mm has been issued for duty pistols in years. This info pertains to USBP only, can't speak for ICE.

 

[29-1]

"I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT."

I may be wrong and if so, my apologies, but I don't think any of the claimed to be LEOs FBI haters in this thread have attended or ever will attend the National Academy. Had they done so, their comments would be coming from a 180.
Chuck

 

[DR505]

Every time I go through Firearms Instructor Recertification, or any time I'm at Quantico actually, I stop by the BRF and see what is the latest. They have some interesting things going on...one of the most recent was the initial purchase, training, and issuance of 7.62 x 54 rifles (La Rue OBR) for our Indian Country agents. If any of you LE folks are ever in the neighborhood, swing by and have a visit.

 

[LtBlue425]

"I'm curious. Of those people who bash our Ballistic researchers, how many of you have actually gone down and spent time with them or seen the demonstrations they do. It's offered during National Academy or you can contact them and they can put something together if your in the neighborhood. I'm not going to single out any specific loads, but it's frankly kinda scary when you see some of the rounds LE Agencies are using to include SWAT."

I may be wrong and if so, my apologies, but I don't think any of the claimedto be LEOs FBI haters in this thread have attended or ever will attend the National Academy. Had they done so, their comments would be coming from a 180.
Chuck

I've been to the Academy for 6 different courses, all sponsored and taught by the FBI forensic lab. Excellent courses. Mixing with the Green Shirts and Blue Flamers was interesting in many ways.
Are the ballistics people you refer to, part of the Lab or a different unit? Hard enough to navigate the gerbil tunnels much less keep track of all the sub-units at the NA.

 

[LtBlue425]

One area where the FBI has a HUGE advantage is the amount of money available for equipment and facilities. To a municipal Lt who sometimes had to fight for a $50 line item in the budget, it is just mind boggling. The money also gives you the staff to do a lot of things most LE can't because of workload and lack of bodies.

Being in the middle of a large Marine base has its advantages for training without distraction from the general public. Plus its not every day I get to fly around in the HRT chopper.

 

[DR505]

Are the ballistics people you refer to, part of the Lab or a different unit? Hard enough to navigate the gerbil tunnels much less keep track of all the sub-units at the NA.

The Ballistic Research Facility is part of the Defensive Systems Unit at Quantico...absolutely no relation to the Lab.