My rundown of the Miami Shootout....

[rwsmith]

This arose from the age old 'caliber wars' raging on another thread.

The essentials of the Miami Shootout:

One assailant was a Marine, the other a Ranger.

Eight agents were in the actual shootout

Agents had shotguns, 9mm pistols and revolvers

There was a collision, the agents are shook up because the crooks had a bigger car. One guy lost his .357 when it flew out the door, another his service revolver. One had an S&W model 36 back up gun which he used.

Crook wounds officer though a car door with a mini-14 and another who was running.

One crook shot in the forearm

One crook shot and unconscious out of the fight.

Agent shot in the hand and couldn't reload his revolver.

Crook shot through arm into chest, one of the shots that would be fatal later. He was then shot in the thigh and foot.

Crook now shoots a .357 but is shot in the forearm and drops the gun.

Crook shot again in arm and it penetrates to the shoulder blade, not a serious wound.

Crook fired the mini-14 and paralyzed one agent and wounded another with shrapnel.

Crook continued fighting by using his left hand to operate the gun.

Agent's gun hit, rendering it inoperative. While working on the gun, crook advances aggressively and kills two agents and wounds one.

Crook tries to drive away in agents car, is shot at 5 times with a shotgun, wounding both feet.

Other crook regains consciousness, jumps in car.

Agents fire four rounds but miss.

Confusion reigns and accounts differ, but crook fires three shots from a Dan Wesson.

Agent comes toward the car and fires six shots from a .357. Rounds 4,5 and 6 being fatal to both crooks.

About 145 shots were fired and it lasted about 5 minutes.

Neither crook was hopped up on drugs.


It seems to me that in this particular encounter:

Though there were several shotguns, they were pretty ineffective. One was wounded by shotgun fire on both sides.

The .223 was highly effective. Five out of eight agents were seriously wounded and one hurt by shrapnel.

Most of the agents shots hit the crooks in the extremities.

Platt, one of the crooks was tough as nails and one mean mamma-jamma.


Some conclusions were:

Revolvers are too hard to reload and don't have enough shots.

Only two agents were wearing light ballistic vests and even they were inadequate against the .223.

Everybody knows the FBI changed to 10mm, which didn't work out.

I've drawn some of my own conclusions:

If there is such a thing as bad luck, it seems the agents got it because there were many interferences in them fighting effectively.

I don't think the agents needed bigger handguns, they needed quick access to some rifles.

I'm surprised that the shotguns weren't more effective. Not that they should have decided the fight, but there was very little effect to either side.

I'm NOT faulting marksmanship because of the complexity, cover and circumstances in the fight plus being outgunned, but a few more body shots by the agents would have slowed Platt down some. Very unfortunately, there were better armed agents on the way that didn't arrive in time.

If you are SURE you are getting into an armed encounter, take a car that isn't a tin cans, wear vests and have some heavier weapons.

It takes a lot of guts to be an agent or LEO.

 

[Texas Star]

I read that one of the crooks was ex-USAF security forces. ?? Which had been a Ranger? A Marine?
I really don't know.

The Dan Wesson brand has no "and" in it.

Revolvers were disparaged, but it was a revolver, firing .38 lead HP Plus P loads, that ended the battle. Placement counts. Mireles hit his target. I've read accounts saying that he used a S&W M-586, although not firing .357 ammo.

Tactical errors were made. One agent was riding around with his gun on the car seat. Not surprisingly, it flew off the seat when the collision occurred. Another agent lost his glasses and was unable to see well enough to deal with the situation.

One of the sad facts of this battle is that Platt and the other thug turned out as they did. Had they remained in the military and wound up in Iraq or Afghanistan (had those conflicts been underway then), their qualities would have made them heroes. Ironic, and sad that they chose the path that they did.

These were thoroughly bad men, who had robbed and killed in addition to their bank robberies. They needed to be stopped. It's a shame that the cost was so high. But valuable lessons were learned.

BTW, I was guarding banks at a time when another aggressive, very active robber was busy here. He was eventually taken down by FBI and (I think) local police. That worthy attempted suicide when cornered, but survived to go to prison. I hope he stays there for a long time.

There was another bandit of similar achievement. When these guys turn up, they're smart, determined, and bold. It takes determined, brave men and the right tactics to deal with them.

I can tell you that most bank guards have very little training and are largely sitting ducks, often treated poorly by both banks and their employers. They usually just become victims. Alas, I doubt that'll change. I tried to get my employer to offer some training and detailed what I thought would help. I was ignored and treated with some amusement, I suspect. I did make such plans as I could, and was more aware than many and had plans in case a firefight broke out. I'm profoundly glad that I never had to test those plans in reality.

 

[DR505]

Th shotguns were mostly loaded with buck shot...we now use almost exclusively slug. Agent Mirales was operating his Remington 870 one handed since his other arm was shot up pretty bad...he ended the fight with his revolver.

Ammo in the 9mm was the old Silvertip. Why did the FBI choose that ammo? The gunwriters of the ay said it was good. After that the FBI created the Ballistics Research Facility at Quantico and applied the scientific method to ammo testing.

 

[chud333]

An AR15 or AR10 in the Feds cars evens up the fight.
Bet they carry something similar in the cars now ???

Did they know these bad guys were this heavily armed?
You don't go hunting Bear with .22's....


Chuck

 

[DR505]

An AR15 or AR10 in the Feds cars evens up the fight.
Bet they carry something similar in the cars now ???

Did they know these bad guys were this heavily armed?
You don't go hunting Bear with .22's....


Chuck

We now carry M-4's or some of our remaining 10mm H&K MP-5/10's, as well as the 870.

 

[30-30remchester]

Ammo in the 9mm was the old Silvertip. Why did the FBI choose that ammo? The gunwriters of the ay said it was good. After that the FBI created the Ballistics Research Facility at Quantico and applied the scientific method to ammo testing.[/QUOTE]

I tried Winchesters Silvertips in a 45 ACP to shoot a doe antelope. These bullets expanded well, but penetration was minimal to say the least. I recover 5 out of the 7 rounds I fired at a 125# animal, which was far smaller than the average bad guy. IF the people who have studied the wounds the felons received, would add their knowledge about depth of bullet wounds it might add some light. What I am asking, if each wound would have 50% more penetration, how many would have rendered the felon incapable of continuing the fight?

 

[Arik]

Shot placement counts but so does the amount of ammo one has. 17 in the mag and 34 on the hip keeps you in the fight longer than 6 in the cylinder and 12 on the hip. Also gives more chances to hit

Next, let's examine the LA bank robbery!

 

[Texas Star]

We now carry M-4's or some of our remaining 10mm H&K MP-5/10's, as well as the 870.

Are the H-k's in either caliber capable of full auto fire? I think I read that the 10mms aren't. ??

I doubt that's a serious matter, given how they're employed, and if full auto, might they be a little hard to control? What are the ballistics of the 10mm round in this role?

Do SWAT or HRT agents still get issued fancied-up Springfield .45's? I'd like to think that some agents don't have to carry Glocks.

 

[rimfired]

If you know you're going into a gun-fight...
Your choice of weapons should be capable.

 

[DR505]

Are the H-k's in either caliber capable of full auto fire? I think I read that the 10mms aren't. ??

I doubt that's a serious matter, given how they're employed, and if full auto, might they be a little hard to control? What are the ballistics of the 10mm round in this role?

The regular Agent variety has single and 2 round burst. SWAT and Firearms Instructors are authorized to carry the Full-Auto version. The ammo is Federal 190 grain JHP. In full auto it is readily controllable and fun to shoot.

Do SWAT or HRT agents still get issued fancied-up Springfield .45's? I'd like to think that some agents don't have to carry Glocks.

Yes, SWAT and HRT can use the Springer. Regular Agents can also carry the Glock 21 if they so choose. The Sig P220 is still on the grandfathered list, so many still tote that firearm about.

 

[DR505]

If you know you're going into a gun-fight...
Your choice of weapons should be capable.

One of the old-timers that was an academy instructor told me, "If you know you are going to get into a gunfight tomorrow...call in sick!" He'd been in a few and didn't particularly enjoy the experience.

 

[Bat Guano]

This has been well and truly flogged.

This Amazon.com: In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders: Ronny Cox, Bruce Greenwood, Michael Gross, Doug Sheehan, David Soul, Ronald G. Joseph, Teri Copley, Richard Jenkins, Peter McRobbie, Anne Lange, Katie Layman, Deborah May, Becky Ann Baker, Randal Patrick, Ashton Wise, Jaime Tirelli, Geoffrey Deuel, Craig Thomas, Ann Kymberlie, Lisa Rieffel, Jeanne Tanzy Williams, Silvio Luciano, Dorothy Keller, David Orr (III), Cameron Pratto, Daniel Fern, Loren Peele, Dave Corey, Boaz, Grant Foster, B.J. McQueen, Ed Montgomery, Elliott Fried, Jan Carr, Tracy Roberts, Carole Nease, Terri Cobb, Raymond Bouchard, Dick Lowry: Movies & TV@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H0ZWrej5L.@@AMEPARAM@@51H0ZWrej5L

is pretty accurate, tracks well with the official findings.

I picked up an early CAR-15 back in '83 or so, had it along occasionally and felt better with it. Everyone pretty well turned a blind eye to it. I guess "police militarization" was more trouble to spell than it was worth back in those days.

 

[S&W Fan]

This comes up every now and then, might want to look at this for insight:

FBI-Miami Shootout

 

[Texas Star]

This has been well and truly flogged.

This Amazon.com: In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders: Ronny Cox, Bruce Greenwood, Michael Gross, Doug Sheehan, David Soul, Ronald G. Joseph, Teri Copley, Richard Jenkins, Peter McRobbie, Anne Lange, Katie Layman, Deborah May, Becky Ann Baker, Randal Patrick, Ashton Wise, Jaime Tirelli, Geoffrey Deuel, Craig Thomas, Ann Kymberlie, Lisa Rieffel, Jeanne Tanzy Williams, Silvio Luciano, Dorothy Keller, David Orr (III), Cameron Pratto, Daniel Fern, Loren Peele, Dave Corey, Boaz, Grant Foster, B.J. McQueen, Ed Montgomery, Elliott Fried, Jan Carr, Tracy Roberts, Carole Nease, Terri Cobb, Raymond Bouchard, Dick Lowry: Movies & TV

is pretty accurate, tracks well with the official findings.

I picked up an early CAR-15 back in '83 or so, had it along occasionally and felt better with it. Everyone pretty well turned a blind eye to it. I guess "police militarization" was more trouble to spell than it was worth back in those days.

A lot of Dallas cops stash AR-15 variants in their car trunks now. That was prompted by a shootout in suburban Richardson that made it pretty clear that a rifle is an asset.

What a pity that LE learns sometimes through grim experience when logic would suggest having rifles before they regretted a lack of them.

 

[badge]

For what it's worth, there was nothing wrong with Agent Dove's, god rest him, marksmanship. That Silvertip he fired went through the Biceps, into the chest and perforated an artery, penetrating nearly to the heart itself, cross torso. If he had been shot outside the hospital I've been told he had almost zero chance of survival. You had a very determined set of thugs, well armed and a number of very brave agents who did their level best to arrest them, no matter the cost. I'm sure at that moment in history they felt that they had plenty of men and more than enough weapons. I think all of us have felt the same at one time or another.

 

[DR505]

For what it's worth, there was nothing wrong with Agent Dove's, god rest him, marksmanship. That Silvertip he fired went through the Biceps, into the chest and perforated an artery, penetrating nearly to the heart itself, cross torso. If he had been shot outside the hospital I've been told he had almost zero chance of survival. You had a very determined set of thugs, well armed and a number of very brave agents who did their level best to arrest them, no matter the cost. I'm sure at that moment in history they felt that they had plenty of men and more than enough weapons. I think all of us have felt the same at one time or another.

Actually, he could have been shot on the operating table and not survived. SA Dove's shot was 100% lethal, but it was not effective.

 

[Mcwsky09]

Wait, I thought we were supposed to be upset about our domestic agencies being "militarized" but you're saying that they are in fact under equipped to deal with real threats in the civilian world?
I suppose context is critical, that is to say if you are after armed and dangerous bank robbers that calls for a different approach in both armament and tactics than a routine traffic stop. Or at the very least that some objective threat assessment is an important factor in deciding the appropriate response.

 

[Arik]

You had a very determined set of thugs, .

THIS^ This Is the biggest thing to take away from that incident. We can argue training and bullets and revolvers vs mag fed semi autos. ..bla bla bla. .bla bla. The one thing we can never ever calculate is the human factor.

Here's one to ponder on. Did you know there was a Japanese man who survived BOTH atomic bombs!!??!!? He was in both cities when the bombs were dropped. Not only did he not get die, he lived into his 80s in relatively good health

 

[Texas Star]

THIS^ This Is the biggest thing to take away from that incident. We can argue training and bullets and revolvers vs mag fed semi autos. ..bla bla bla. .bla bla. The one thing we can never ever calculate is the human factor.

Here's one to ponder on. Did you know there was a Japanese man who survived BOTH atomic bombs!!??!!? He was in both cities when the bombs were dropped. Not only did he not get die, he lived into his 80s in relatively good health

And there are those guys whom I've mentioned in bear threads. One killed an African lion and the other a Kodiak bear with their knives. Some folks just manage to beat the odds. I'm here myself purely by the grace of God after a couple of hazardous experiences. I'm sure that others are. My son is danged lucky to have survived several close combat events in Iraq. In one case, the man firing right next to him was killed.

But as lucky as I've been, I'm glad that I've never had to shoot it out with somebody like Platt or Matix. That's just plain hazardous to your health.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
My last Agency issue service pistol was a Sig-Sauer P-229 .40 with issue ammo Speers' 180gr JHP. Issue shotgun wasa Mossberg Model 590-1 with ghost ring sights, issue ammo was #4 Buckshot or Rifled Slugs. We also had Colt M-16 .223 Rifles (select fire), Springfield M-14 7.62X51 Rifles, H&K MP-5 .40caliber SMGs, and Savage .308 Bolt Action Rifles with scopes. In reserve were Springfield Model 1903s and Garand M1 Rifles. Our Chief was former Army Special Forces. THEN we changed Chiefs. The new Chief was retired from Howard County, Maryland County Police as a Lieutenant. The M14s, M1903s, and M1s were given away to another Agency. The M-16s were converted to semi-auto and then put away in storage along with the MP-5 SMGs. His reasoning was that He did not feel comfortable with our fire power on the streets. I kept my issue shotgun loaded and sighted in with Rifled Slugs and kept extra Sig-Sauer Magazines in my patrol vehicle.