Open Carry In Public Restaurants - What Would You Do?

[Arik]

Wouldn't bother me if it was secured. If it was flopping around in a cheap holster I would have said something.

It's impossible not to sweep someone at some point. I carry iwb but I'm sure that when I bend down to tie my shoes I sweep someone. And if it was so dangerous and the popularity of shoulder holsters over the decades there would be a lot of wounded people. But there arnt

 

[ladder13]

It's idiots like this who almost give an excuse to the MA-mandated drop test.

Since only 2 or 3 states have that "idiotic" rule, I'd pin that on the voters and lawmakers of those 2-3 states.

 

[bgrafsr]

I often wondered how many times I had a gun pointed at me while driving my cruiser on patrol. Finally stopped worrying about it as there was nothing I could have done about it anyways.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If the guy was pocket carrying a smaller gun and sitting across from you, the muzzle would likely be pointed in your general direction too.

There are any number of scenarios where a muzzle may be pointed toward someone while safely holstered.

 

[kozmic]

Your instinct to protect your family and your self were 100% correct. I don't see any degree of unwarranted paranoia. As stated, I would have approached him as a fellow gun owner and asked him to sit in a different direction and describe how his carry rig could present a problem for him and for others. I find most gun people are very willing to listen to the opinions and suggestions of other gun guys. After all, the right to carry comes with responsibility.

Congrats on 39 years to both you and Mrs. Reb. Well done!

 

[hangnoose]

"IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO SWEEP SOMEONE"?

Gotta disagree there, no offense. If I am pocket/iwb/owb or pretty much ANY other manner of carry where the muzzle is facing the floor, I would have to be doing some kind of headstand/yoga/or other very unnatural positions to sweep someone. Being a gun guy and trying hard to be supportive of all gun guys rights, I would not have been able to eat comfortably with myself & family being swept & looking down the muzzle of a large bore. That would have consumed ALL my thoughts and attention, and I am guilty of owning a horizontal shoulder rig myself & have gotten similar complaints from friends while in the field. I definitely would have asked to be re-seated and explained why. To confront the OC'er would have surely been a bad move as I'm sure he had his speech prepared, could care less about anyone else's feelings & would have welcomed more attention. A word in private, or a note AFTER dinner maybe. Now to venture further out on thin ice & risk POing the 1911 crowd, yes the 1911 would get my vote for best semi EVER invented, the safety when carrying in condition 1 is in such a perfect position that unless you are extremely well controlled & trained it is like a second nature to flip it off when drawing, combined with a great light trigger, an errant trigger finger can & often does result in many ND's & MAY be one of the reasons a lot of issued guns are going DAO, JMO. Personally I hate DAO in a semi or revolver. I still shoot my revolvers DAO & can always stage the trigger if I want to. The soap box is all yours now.

 

[federali]

Jimmy J

1. New CCW Carrier
2. attempting to impress his friends/buddies
IMHO I would have requested to be moved to a different table on the other side of the room. (or departed the restaurant).
Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.

Jimmy J raises a good point regarding trigger shoes. These devices are known to have become loose and to slide down, preventing the trigger of a revolver from being pulled. You may use a trigger shoe on a pure target pistol but they are best avoided for SD firearms.

 

[Cpo1944]

Model520 fan was right to be concerned about 1911s grip safety failure. Mine broke and it was easy to dryfire with out gripping it around the safety.
My Marine nephew discovered the problem, I never even thought to check it- just presumed it wasn`t failure prone.This was on a very lightly used Colt Gold Cup.

 

[Aticus]

Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.

If you check with the makers of holsters I think you'll find that they specifically warn against using a trigger shoe in their holsters for just such a circumstance.

As for the OP I agree that would be uncomfortable but I would have talked to the gun carrier. I would have asked him to move the gun to some other position or perhaps change his position so the gun was not pointing at anyone. Pointing out that even though his gun appeared to be safe and secure the perception was that it wasn't. If he refused I would have asked for another table and asked that no one be seated behind the man till he left. I WOULD NOT engage him in a debate about his right to open carry.

If you have the legal right to open carry where you live I can't and won't stop you. I will, however, insist that you do so safely and with some thought to those in which you come in contact. Respecting others is part of the responsibility and good manors of carrying a gun openly or concealed. It is legal and has been to open carry where I live but until just a few days ago it was permitted for any government unit to make it illegal. The State Legislature fixed that by amending state statute to preempt those local laws for concealed permit holders.

About those monstrous horizontal shoulder holsters, I have never heard of a gun that was in a holster firing unless acted upon by external forces. I have carried a 1911 (and will again) in such a holster and for it to have fired would have required the hammer to some how strike the firing pin after going through the leather strap holding the gun in the holster. At the risk of offending some on the forum, I think that, at times,we worry too much about safety. Yes , yes, I know all the rules and platitudes but I still think some of us go too far with it. In what I like to refer to as my "real job" (I retired 14 years ago) I went through monthly safety meetings. Believe me safety is part of my life but you can over do it. Lighten up a little.

Let me give you an example: I spoke to one of the board of directors in my club about members walking off the range with their guns loaded (mostly handguns and in holsters). He said the club had no objection and didn't worry about it. My concerns were not shared by the club membership so I guess we're all adult enough to do so safely so I don't worry about it and I carry at the range myself now. You can bet your sweet bippy I still keep an eye on safety while I'm there. I just don't over do it.

This isn't meant to put any one down I'm just expressing my opinion. Rant over.

 

[GerSan69]

1. New CCW Carrier
2. attempting to impress his friends/buddies
IMHO I would have requested to be moved to a different table on the other side of the room. (or departed the restaurant).
Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.

Jimmy's #1 and 2 are spot-on.
Your story reminds me of one of my own. Back around 1978, I sold a fellow officer a beautiful nickel, square butt 36. He went and put a trigger shoe on it and carried it in one of those same shoulder holsters (Bianchi, IIRC.) Re-holstering, he blew a hole in his armpit.... and then he got mad at ME. Sheesh, I didn't set it up for suicide, HE did!

 

[ironhead7544]

I was at an early combat match in the mid 70ties. A guy showed up with one of the horizontal shoulder rigs. There were no rules against it so they let him shoot. He managed to fire a round when drawing. Luckily, no one was behind him.

I think a properly designed holster should be pointing down. JMHO.

 

[Ματθιας]

I don't like firearms pointed at me - loaded, unloaded, in a holster, even sitting on a table. Bad stuff comes out of that end. I would've moved.

 

[CoMF]

Was he acting twitchy? Was he trying to reach for his sidearm? I wouldn't have paid him much mind unless he was doing either of those two things.

Also, 1911's don't spontaneously discharge. I do agree, though, that the extreme FBI tilt holster he was using may not have been a wise choice.

 

[old bear]

IMO, most open carry types are screaming for attention, and some of the attention they get is to be the first shot, think about it. If you are going to commit a violent crime, the first thing to do is eliminate any armed threat. Then get on with business.

 

[jimmyj]

AND yet another "OLD GUY's" story:
1962 and I was a "Newbie" starting in Law Enforcement. (This was the era of furnish your own service weapon) A fellow Officer just out of the U.S. Army had purchased a new nickeled Colt Government Model .45acp. We were waiting for court to start, waiting in Com Center with several other Officers from different Agencies. "Bobby" having a different type service weapon (and a fancy one with pearl grips) from a standard six shot .38spl revolver was the center of attention. Naturally everyone wanted to exam the "New Toy". "Bobby" carried his .45acp with a round in the chamber, full magazine, AND the hammer at "HALF COCK"! I had questioned "Bobby" concerning this mode of carry and He assured me that it is the way He had been taught in the Army ?? I was taught "Condition Three" in the Coast Guard, but after all I was just a "Shallow Water Sailor". "Bobby" took the magazine from the weapon, and then removed the cartridge from the chamber before passing it around the room with slide locked back. After the weapon was returned to Him, "Bobby" put the round back in the chamber, closed the slide, and inserted the magazine. Laying the weapon on a desk, He went to the restroom. A Deputy leaning back in his chair, attempted to put a foot on the desk, missed and knocked the side of the desk. The .45acp FIRED !
The 230gr FMJ bullet struck the brick wall and ricochet across the room coming to rest on a shelf. The .45 had also flew across the room coming to rest on a table. After the gunshot the room was completely quiet until someone asked "Is Anyone Shot?" Then suddenly the entire room was cleared, even the Dispatchers ! "Bobby" came from the restroom asking "What Happened?". The Colt was returned to the dealer and was replaced with a S&W Model 10 .38spl 4" with stag grips. Later I asked the dealer about the Colt and was told it was a burr on the sear ?

 

[PA Reb]

PA is an open carry state, open carry is legal without any permitting for citizens, except in "cities of the first class". If he were to want to conceal his handgun he would have had to apply for a "license to carry firearms", which he may not have done, or wanted to do. The method of carry ie horizontal is the issue, and how many pocket carry and think about where your pistol is pointed.
I see nothing unsafe in the manner of carry, and do not subscribe to the hide it train of thought, that being said I would not open carry unless it was my only legal option.

Not correct in any way sir.

 

[Jaysq]

I would have just asked to be moved without giving a reason. No need to start anything with anyone.

 

[11B Lifer]

Concur

Well, and this is only MY opinion, but

1) The guy is an idiot
2) I would have asked to be moved

Congrats to you and your wife.

Unsafe and really inconsiderate-I could care less about open or concealed-but don't point the muzzle at anyone-During my classes I advise that situational awareness dictates that you move or you move those with you out of the danger zone-and that includes gun shows-Asking someone to point a firearm in a safe direction ( in a shop ) is generally treated as an affront to the persons machismo. Some would tell my wife " ah hell honey it ain't loaded! What are you worried about".
Leave the area-at least move-do not argue-you can not fix stupid-plus I'm armed and will not start some confrontation-Its amazing.
The fix? Become an NRA/4H instructor-take a course on Basic pistol- Teach young people how its done-insist on safety-
I can always coach someone to be accurate-On the other hand they must be safe the moment they touch the pistol-there is no room for little whoops-Join NRA-support their programs

 

[PA Reb]

"Pecos Bill" stated - "If you have the legal right to open carry where you live I can't and won't stop you. I will, however, insist that you do so safely and with some thought to those in which you come in contact. Respecting others is part of the responsibility and good manors of carrying a gun openly or concealed." I have to say that I agree with you 1000% sir!

Thank you everyone for the comments and the congratulatory anniversary wishes. Its actually my wife that deserves the credit for sticking with me all those years.

Just to clear the air, PA is not an "open carry" state in the sense that you need to apply for and have a current concealed carry permit to carry a loaded handgun in a concealed / open manner or in a vehicle. If you don't want a concealed carry permit, you may apply for a "hunting, fishing, and target permit but the handgun must be unloaded and in plain view while transporting it.

That said, I was in no way offended by the person carrying openly on his hip although I don't personally think its necessary. I have always defended mine and other people's right to carry and I applaud those that do. The whole intent of my post was to ask if others would feel a little nervous if they saw a big bore semi-auto handgun in a combat ready position sweeping most of their family in a public restaurant. So please guys, don't think I am trying to deny that person his right to openly carry - it just had me a little worried pointing at the backs of my little granddaughter and daughter (insert Murphy's Law here).

Thanks again for all the responses. If it ever happens again, I'll definitely go with my first instinct which was to ask to be moved.

 

[CoMF]

Not correct in any way sir.

Well, actually...

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
(2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license). [Emphasis Mine]