Open Carry In Public Restaurants - What Would You Do?

[ironhead7544]

I was at an early combat match in the mid 70ties. A guy showed up with one of the horizontal shoulder rigs. There were no rules against it so they let him shoot. He managed to fire a round when drawing. Luckily, no one was behind him.

I think a properly designed holster should be pointing down. JMHO.

 

[Ματθιας]

I don't like firearms pointed at me - loaded, unloaded, in a holster, even sitting on a table. Bad stuff comes out of that end. I would've moved.

 

[CoMF]

Was he acting twitchy? Was he trying to reach for his sidearm? I wouldn't have paid him much mind unless he was doing either of those two things.

Also, 1911's don't spontaneously discharge. I do agree, though, that the extreme FBI tilt holster he was using may not have been a wise choice.

 

[old bear]

IMO, most open carry types are screaming for attention, and some of the attention they get is to be the first shot, think about it. If you are going to commit a violent crime, the first thing to do is eliminate any armed threat. Then get on with business.

 

[jimmyj]

AND yet another "OLD GUY's" story:
1962 and I was a "Newbie" starting in Law Enforcement. (This was the era of furnish your own service weapon) A fellow Officer just out of the U.S. Army had purchased a new nickeled Colt Government Model .45acp. We were waiting for court to start, waiting in Com Center with several other Officers from different Agencies. "Bobby" having a different type service weapon (and a fancy one with pearl grips) from a standard six shot .38spl revolver was the center of attention. Naturally everyone wanted to exam the "New Toy". "Bobby" carried his .45acp with a round in the chamber, full magazine, AND the hammer at "HALF COCK"! I had questioned "Bobby" concerning this mode of carry and He assured me that it is the way He had been taught in the Army ?? I was taught "Condition Three" in the Coast Guard, but after all I was just a "Shallow Water Sailor". "Bobby" took the magazine from the weapon, and then removed the cartridge from the chamber before passing it around the room with slide locked back. After the weapon was returned to Him, "Bobby" put the round back in the chamber, closed the slide, and inserted the magazine. Laying the weapon on a desk, He went to the restroom. A Deputy leaning back in his chair, attempted to put a foot on the desk, missed and knocked the side of the desk. The .45acp FIRED !
The 230gr FMJ bullet struck the brick wall and ricochet across the room coming to rest on a shelf. The .45 had also flew across the room coming to rest on a table. After the gunshot the room was completely quiet until someone asked "Is Anyone Shot?" Then suddenly the entire room was cleared, even the Dispatchers ! "Bobby" came from the restroom asking "What Happened?". The Colt was returned to the dealer and was replaced with a S&W Model 10 .38spl 4" with stag grips. Later I asked the dealer about the Colt and was told it was a burr on the sear ?

 

[PA Reb]

PA is an open carry state, open carry is legal without any permitting for citizens, except in "cities of the first class". If he were to want to conceal his handgun he would have had to apply for a "license to carry firearms", which he may not have done, or wanted to do. The method of carry ie horizontal is the issue, and how many pocket carry and think about where your pistol is pointed.
I see nothing unsafe in the manner of carry, and do not subscribe to the hide it train of thought, that being said I would not open carry unless it was my only legal option.

Not correct in any way sir.

 

[Jaysq]

I would have just asked to be moved without giving a reason. No need to start anything with anyone.

 

[11B Lifer]

Concur

Well, and this is only MY opinion, but

1) The guy is an idiot
2) I would have asked to be moved

Congrats to you and your wife.

Unsafe and really inconsiderate-I could care less about open or concealed-but don't point the muzzle at anyone-During my classes I advise that situational awareness dictates that you move or you move those with you out of the danger zone-and that includes gun shows-Asking someone to point a firearm in a safe direction ( in a shop ) is generally treated as an affront to the persons machismo. Some would tell my wife " ah hell honey it ain't loaded! What are you worried about".
Leave the area-at least move-do not argue-you can not fix stupid-plus I'm armed and will not start some confrontation-Its amazing.
The fix? Become an NRA/4H instructor-take a course on Basic pistol- Teach young people how its done-insist on safety-
I can always coach someone to be accurate-On the other hand they must be safe the moment they touch the pistol-there is no room for little whoops-Join NRA-support their programs

 

[PA Reb]

"Pecos Bill" stated - "If you have the legal right to open carry where you live I can't and won't stop you. I will, however, insist that you do so safely and with some thought to those in which you come in contact. Respecting others is part of the responsibility and good manors of carrying a gun openly or concealed." I have to say that I agree with you 1000% sir!

Thank you everyone for the comments and the congratulatory anniversary wishes. Its actually my wife that deserves the credit for sticking with me all those years.

Just to clear the air, PA is not an "open carry" state in the sense that you need to apply for and have a current concealed carry permit to carry a loaded handgun in a concealed / open manner or in a vehicle. If you don't want a concealed carry permit, you may apply for a "hunting, fishing, and target permit but the handgun must be unloaded and in plain view while transporting it.

That said, I was in no way offended by the person carrying openly on his hip although I don't personally think its necessary. I have always defended mine and other people's right to carry and I applaud those that do. The whole intent of my post was to ask if others would feel a little nervous if they saw a big bore semi-auto handgun in a combat ready position sweeping most of their family in a public restaurant. So please guys, don't think I am trying to deny that person his right to openly carry - it just had me a little worried pointing at the backs of my little granddaughter and daughter (insert Murphy's Law here).

Thanks again for all the responses. If it ever happens again, I'll definitely go with my first instinct which was to ask to be moved.

 

[CoMF]

Not correct in any way sir.

Well, actually...

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
(2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license). [Emphasis Mine]

 

[the ringo kid]

Dang, a guy gets sick and gets in on a discussion late. )

Id have felt a bit nervous too and would have just moved. To me, that guy was just showing off and not being fully responsible. Does he go to the john wearing a gun while sitting in a stall?

 

[paplinker]

This thread has become more interesting to me as it has progressed. I do not carry in public myself yet but am for carrying in public places concealed. All of the opinions are from people with a general knowledge of firearms and various holsters and are still divided.

Imagine a family with no knowledge or care about firearms sitting down to dinner at a restaurant then looking over to see a gun pointing at them or there children is not going to go over well.They have no idea how safe or unsafe they are at that moment. Sure they could move but its going to put carrying in a negative light to them.

I live in a certain area of Pa where it is very divided on opinions on handguns.Most by lack of knowledge. I am trying to change friends and others minds one at a time that they are needed in our society.
Explaining to them that holstered guns pointed at them is safe will not sell easily.
Even i am not fully convinced. I have no idea how well he is trained with his gear. Rather not find out.

 

[Dave from Pa]

I'm guessing this happened in PA?

Knowing how a percentage of PA open carry folks behave, if you mentioned anything to him he might have started lecturing you about his rights, given you a pamphlet on PA gun laws, recorded the conversation on his phone, posted the video online, and told everyone on various forums to checkout his video containing a man freaking out over a "MWAG".

For those who don't know, PA (as I'm sure other states do) has a small percentage of the population who OCs just to make a point. They are armed not only with a firearm, but also with handouts, video/audio recorders, and an unfortunate attitude. They say
their goal is to educate, but they go about it in a counterproductive way that makes people uncomforttable.Not all who OC, but some.

Couldn't have said it better myself.Agree with you and the original poster.

 

[Arik]

Gotta disagree there, no offense. If I am pocket/iwb/owb or pretty much ANY other manner of carry where the muzzle is facing the floor, I would have to be doing some kind of headstand/yoga/or other very unnatural positions to sweep someone. Being a gun guy and trying hard to be supportive of all gun guys rights, I would not have been able to eat comfortably with myself & family being swept & looking down the muzzle of a large bore. That would have consumed ALL my thoughts and attention, and I am guilty of owning a horizontal shoulder rig myself & have gotten similar complaints from friends while in the field. I definitely would have asked to be re-seated and explained why. To confront the OC'er would have surely been a bad move as I'm sure he had his speech prepared, could care less about anyone else's feelings & would have welcomed more attention. A word in private, or a note AFTER dinner maybe. Now to venture further out on thin ice & risk POing the 1911 crowd, yes the 1911 would get my vote for best semi EVER invented, the safety when carrying in condition 1 is in such a perfect position that unless you are extremely well controlled & trained it is like a second nature to flip it off when drawing, combined with a great light trigger, an errant trigger finger can & often does result in many ND's & MAY be one of the reasons a lot of issued guns are going DAO, JMO. Personally I hate DAO in a semi or revolver. I still shoot my revolvers DAO & can always stage the trigger if I want to. The soap box is all yours now.

Have you ever bent down to tie your shoes or puck something up? If so you have muzzle swept someone.

I wouldn't have given it a second thought

 

[Sprefix]

Congrats on your wedded bliss. I'm glad all ended well and no harm fell upon anyone. You mentioned in the OP that the gun could have been covered better. It still would have been pointed in the same direction but you would have been none the wiser. If we were aware of every danger around us in normal situations, we would never leave the house. The guy in the car by you may be drunk or high and not be swerving to make it obvious. The guy next to you in church may be an adulteress sinner eyeing your wife or someone else's. Point is we can do what we can to be as safe as we can and stay out of harms way at every opportunity. NEVER try to control what someone else does (unless serious harmful intent is at hand) unless you just enjoy being disappointed and frustrated at "ignorant" people and their actions that defy your logic. I would have moved my family immediately and notified the staff of my move. If I felt the need to tell the "offending carrier", I would discreetly congratulate him on exercising his right to carry and see if he was of the mind to sit in a less offensive/dangerous area concerning his muzzle. At any rate, I'm again glad no harm came from the situation.

 

[gdnagle]

^^^^ This.

I agree with the above poster, and I absolutely, in as polite a way as I could have, would have mentioned to him that he was sweeping people and making them very uncomfortable.

I also would have moved and changed seating.

Indiscreetly so as not to embarrass the guy. You don't want to get into a drawn out debate with heated raised voices about right to carry and bring attention to him carrying to others that are totally against anyone carrying open or concealed.

Well, and this is only MY opinion, but

1) The guy is an idiot
2) I would have asked to be moved

Congrats to you and your wife.

Asking to be moved, altho having your mind put at ease, gives the restaurant and anti's more ammunition as to placing firearms off limits within their domain. Would you fell better next time you went to the restaurant and saw a no firearms allowed sign? Did you get harmed by the firearm? Most people against firearms don't differentiate between open and concealed carry.

It could have been a teachable moment for him if you approached him as a friend and a fellow gun lover.

It could be that it never even occurred to him that his securely-holstered gun was pointing at somebody.
He doesn't automatically earn the title "idiot" in my book. He'd have to be doing something more malignant than possessing a holstered gun to reach "idiot" status.

A quote that I learned from a very wise old friend:
"I didn't know that I didn't know."
Maybe he just didn't know.

I would have just asked to be moved without giving a reason. No need to start anything with anyone.

As above I would have nonchalantly ask to talk to the guy in maybe the mens room away from others in his party, and just bring it to his attention without causing a 2nd amendment debate and to let him know first thing I wasn't against open carry but I personally wouldn't carry where my firearm was pointed at someone as AD's do happen.

Talking to the guy could bring out hostilities to you as he may feel you have no business trying to explain to him your fears and he might fell he knows more then you.

I've carried in a shoulder holster and at the time didn't give much thought as to the muzzle being pointed towards my rear. I don't OC even though my state allows it unless on one of the very rare times I forget my wallet and my wife isn't with me and now I only carry IWB with muzzle down.

 

[Smoke]

I understand being a little freaked out looking down the barrel of a gun but realistically the odds of a gun just arbitrarily "going off" while properly holstered are slim enough that if it happened God wanted you dead.

I would have finished my Moo Goo Gai Pan and minded my own business

 

[therevjay]

At first I was with the "antis". But...Unless you are alone in the woods it is impossible to point the muzzle in a TOTALY safe direction. It still would make me a little nervous though.

 

[Absalom]

Have you ever bent down to tie your shoes or puck something up? If so you have muzzle swept someone.
I wouldn't have given it a second thought

Of course you're right, but I think there is a big difference between momentarily sweeping someone and being so "carefree" that you sit someplace with your barrel pointed at people close-by for an extended period of time.
I've carried concealed since Oregon became a shall-issue state in 1989, and I'm still very conscious of the presence of the gun whenever I'm out in public carrying. Family members have been known to kid me on trips abroad about "stop pulling your shirt down, you don't have your gun under there!".
Clowns like the guy in this situation, who make a show of carrying openly and then are so lacking in common sense and situational awareness that they violate basic safety rules, are an embarrassment to gun owners and do as much damage to the 2nd Amendment cause as the antis. Just imagine if some anti-gun liberal's family had been sitting where the OP was. How statistically safe or unsafe the situation was, is really not the main point.
That said, being dumb isn't illegal, and the guy didn't pick his table, so I would have moved without a fuss.

 

[vytoland]

"what would you have done in the same situation?"

I would have gotten up and..............ordered more Kung Pao Chicken and Moo Goo Gai Pan.......

 

[Will Carry]

If me carrying a handgun into a restaurant you are eating at, makes you feel safer, then it's a false sense of security. I don't carry to enforce the law, shoot robbers or protect you. I carry to protect me, my family and loved ones. Anyone else will be at my discretion and risk. That may sound cold and hard but I take this very seriously.

 

[Bat Guano]

"This ain't Dodge City and you ain't Bill Hickok."

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's not stupid.

 

[ladder13]

"what would you have done in the same situation?"

I would have gotten up and..............ordered more Kung Pao Chicken and Moo Goo Gai Pan.......

I like Egg Foo Young with brown rice, myself, but it seems to have disappeared from the menus.

 

[Aticus]

If me carrying a handgun into a restaurant you are eating at, makes you feel safer, then it's a false sense of security. I don't carry to enforce the law, shoot robbers or protect you. I carry to protect me, my family and loved ones. Anyone else will be at my discretion and risk. That may sound cold and hard but I take this very seriously.

Reread the OP. This wasn't about feeling safer. This was about NOT feeling safer do to a gun pointing at the OP's family.

 

[schgsd]

What I'm seeing here is that as responsible gun owners, we have all been taught not to point weapons at someone else unless the s is gonna htf. And pretty much every version of a horizontal holster carry will wind up violating that rule at some point.

 

[PA Reb]

I understand being a little freaked out looking down the barrel of a gun but realistically the odds of a gun just arbitrarily "going off" while properly holstered are slim enough that if it happened God wanted you dead.

I would have finished my Moo Goo Gai Pan and minded my own business

I really don't care if it was holstered properly or not. The first that would have been hit was my little granddaughter or my daughter, not me. If someone points a gun loaded at combat ready at your face and tells you not to worry "it won't go off", would you just smile and stare down the hole? I think as soon as you had the chance someone would be in for a good arse whooping, correct? Besides, chicken broccoli is better than "moo goo gai pan" in my opinion and I don't believe in destiny - man has their own free will!

 

[Kanewpadle]

I too would have moved without saying anything to the young man. You just can't talk to some people.

I worked with a guy at a gun shop that carried two 1911's in a double shoulder rig. I didn't like looking down the barrels of two guns but it didn't bother me much because I could see where his hands were at all times.

If someone were seated in the same manner as the OP where I couldn't see if he was fiddling with his gun, I would have moved.

 

[USAF385]

Have you ever bent down to tie your shoes or puck something up? If so you have muzzle swept someone.

I wouldn't have given it a second thought

I just tried... Muzzle stays pointing at floor both IWB appendix and pocket. Of course, I'm able to place four non-thumb fingers completely under my feet without bending my knees, so I might be bending differently than some folks.

The only time it might sweep someone when bending is if it's pocket carry in my right pocket and I one-knee-kneel with my left knee on the floor.

 

[UncaGrunny]

...walking around in the 2nd floor of a wood frame house...

Slipping and falling on an icy sidewalk...

Subway / airport cops with slung MP5's that sweep anyone who walks within a few feet of them, constantly.

Purse guns.

Gun in a holster, gun in a carry case, gun in a trunk rack sideways in a patrol car that just passed me, concealed weapons carried legally or illegally around you all the time without your knowledge.

TBCH unless the gun is in someone's hand, I'm really just not overly concerned. Not sure why, but I really don't think about it. Probably means I trust engineering far more than I trust the average person.

I wouldn't be all that thrilled in the OP's position, but it's something that happens when people have a right and exercise it. Comes with the territory, IMO. If guns are prolifically carried (and I would hope that they could be) then muzzle-sweeps are going to be nearly continuous and mostly unknown.

I might have asked to be moved depending on the carrier's behavior, or I might not have.

I try real hard to follow Ben Franklin's advice whenever possible: Age Res Proprias Tuas

 

[geoff40]

Holstered or not, never let a gun point at something you would not want to shoot.