A brief history lesson, please...

[TTSH]

I wonder if someone, who was around and paying a whole lot more attention than I was at the time, can please explain to me in 25 words or less what motivated S&W to get into producing all-metal 1911 pistols at a time (2004-2005) when everything else they were making had gone or was going to plastic? There has got to be more to the story than just the sudden desire to copy other handgun manufacturers or the sudden realization that in the new age of plastic handguns, the 1911 could be a big profit maker catering to those dinosaur folks who still wanted all-metal handguns.

Anybody want to take that question?

 

[GaryS]

They saw a profitable market. That's all there is to it really. EVERYONE makes a 1911, or so it seems. S&W, Sig, Ruger, Taurus, and a lot of others I can't think of.

Personally, I wish they had stuck with the 3rd generation guns, which frankly I think are a much better design.

Oddly, Sig manages to do both make guns of their own modern design and make 1911 pattern guns that sell.

Come to think of it, so do others.

Only S&W doesn't seem to have the ability (or maybe desire) to do that.

I know that they are competing successfully for the LE market with Glock by making the M&P guns, but that shouldn't mean they can't make 3rd gen guns as well.

I wonder if Glock will ever make a 1911?

I see I drifted, didn't I?

 

[federali]

Dead On Arrival

I don't think a plastic M1911 would sell in that particular niche market. The 1911 market is a strong and fairly predictable market and I don't blame S&W or SIG or Ruger for wanting a piece of it.

 

[TTSH]

They saw a profitable market. That's all there is to it really. EVERYONE makes a 1911, or so it seems. S&W, Sig, Ruger, Taurus, and a lot of others I can't think of.

Personally, I wish they had stuck with the 3rd generation guns, which frankly I think are a much better design.

Oddly, Sig manages to do both make guns of their own modern design and make 1911 pattern guns that sell.

Come to think of it, so do others.

Only S&W doesn't seem to have the ability (or maybe desire) to do that.

I know that they are competing successfully for the LE market with Glock by making the M&P guns, but that shouldn't mean they can't make 3rd gen guns as well.

I wonder if Glock will ever make a 1911?

I see I drifted, didn't I?

... and you exceeded 25 words! But no matter. I thank you for the info.

My suspicion has always been that there is (or was) a significant "story behind the story" in regard to this 1911 manufacturing decision. While I too disagree with the effective dropping of the 3rd Gen line, one can at least understand it from a competitive/sales and profit-making point of view. Glock was stealing market share, cops liked carrying lighter striker-fired guns, plastic guns are way cheaper to make and therefore cheaper for states and municipalities to buy... etc, etc. Everyone wins except folks like you and me.

But then in the middle of this major company transition from metal to plastic, out come the 1911's. What the heck???

Don't get me wrong. I have two Colt 1911's myself and I may even add one more next year. I am not anti-1911. I'm just trying to understand what S&W was thinking back in 2004-2005. It's like "Let's forget about making these beautiful all-metal 3rd Gens and instead let's make cheap plastic guns instead so we can compete with Glock... but oh, by the way, let's also start making all-metal, hundred-year-old 1911's too"!

Can you see my confusion?

 

[armorer951]

I'll offer an opinion using one word......money

 

[TTSH]

I don't think a plastic M1911 would sell in that particular niche market. The 1911 market is a strong and fairly predictable market and I don't blame S&W or SIG or Ruger for wanting a piece of it.

I guess it's more the timing that I don't understand.

If the market for 1911's was that strong in 2004-2005 that it made sense for S&W to jump in (in what otherwise was a major transition for them from metal to plastic handguns), I guess that goes a long way toward answering my question.

I just wonder if there was something more to the story.

 

[arjay]

Kimber was making a killing and they wanted a piece of it.

 

[TTSH]

I'll offer an opinion using one word......money

Well, at the end of the day it is always about money! Even I understand that.

There is still something I am missing here. I mean, why stop making 3rd Gens altogether... but then start making 1911's? That doesn't seem like a logical thing to do.

 

[TTSH]

Kimber was making a killing and they wanted a piece of it.

Okay, that makes sense. Clearly, S&W is out to compete at the higher end of the market... and that means Kimber.

Was this common knowledge at the time... i.e., that they were out to compete for market share with Kimber?

 

[DMSC]

Kimber was making a killing and they wanted a piece of it.

Money...money and money. As I recall, 3rd Gen sales had been falling off for some time. S&W execs made a decision to halt sales of some models (4506 stopped in '99-'00 IIRC) and redesign others to make them less expensive to manufacture (think 908, 909, 910).

Glock was killing them in LE sales...hence the M&P.

Kimber had pretty much single handedly (Colt was lazy and poorly managed) revived the 1911 market.

S&W decided to jump in!

I agree that it's a dang shame they dropped the 3rd Gen guns. But I understand why they were discontinued...since they weren't selling well.

I bought a new 645 back in 1987. I've owned a second 645, a 69, a 6906 and two 5906's). The last of the breed weren't didn't do much for me.

sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk Pro

 

[TTSH]

Money...money and money. As I recall, 3rd Gen sales had been falling off for some time. S&W execs made a decision to halt sales of some models (4506 stopped in '99-'00 IIRC) and redesign others to make them less expensive to manufacture.

Glock was killing them in LE sales...hence the M&P.

Kimber had pretty much single handedly (Colt was lazy and poorly managed) revived the 1911 market.

S&W decided to jump in!

I agree that it's a dang shame they dropped the 3rd Gen guns. But I understand why they were discontinued...since they weren't selling well.

Okay, thanks! I'm starting to get the bigger picture.

What about from an employment, factory and/or machinery utilization perspective. Is there any connection between the end of 3rd Gen production and the start of 1911 production? Or is it more likely that there was not any sort of direct connection?

Put another way, was the end of 3rd Gen production a necessary prerequisite to starting up 1911 production? Or were they likely unrelated.

 

[scwv67]

If S&W wants to compete in a niche market, then at least bring back the Performance Center 3rd Gens. I really think that since Sig seems to have no trouble selling all-metal pistols, S&W would have no difficulty either. How about a 4th Gen.?

As far as the LE market goes, Glock pulled the rug out from under S&W and IMO, S&W will never "own" it again. I think there's a strong possibility that if anyone is going to make any serious progress against Glock it's going to be Sig with their new P320.

Of course, I've been wrong before. Just ask my wife.

 

[Iggy]

S&W foundry was providing the frames to the producers of several other brands of 1911. S&W saw this was a lucrative market and decided to choke off the little guys and produce a gun themselves.

Thus some of the small guys were forced to go to cast frames produced by another large foundry belonging to another big outfit that also soon began producing a 1911 of their own.

 

[Arik]

Sigs are all metal but not all stainless. Quite a few are aluminum frame.

 

[DMSC]

Put another way, was the end of 3rd Gen production a necessary prerequisite to starting up 1911 production? Or were they likely unrelated.

Well, unrelated since they continued the redesigned models through around '08/'09ish.

Remember, one of the driving factors for Kimber jumping into the 1911 market (what little there was back then) was due to the 1994 ban on standard capacity magazines. The 1911 was gaining in popularity...eventually attaining sales numbers never seen before. Kimber saw a market and they jumped in.

Even though the ban ended in 2004, the 1911 market was fired up and it's been that way since.

The bottom line is, the 3rd gen guns were deemed to be less profitable than the 1911's. Profit is THE reason for a company to be in business. The 3rd gen guns never had the aftermarket support that the 1911 had/has (no gun has!).

The 3rd gens were great sellers until other options became available. Between the Glock pistols and the magazine ban, the 3rd gens market share fell off. Then, even more options became available. the demise of the 3rd gen guns was inevitable.

Like I stated previously, S&W tried to keep the 3rd gens going. It was a poor attempt and eventually production was halted.

 

[LVSteve]

The biggest problem the 3rd gen had in the eyes of a largely poorly informed buying public was that it wasn't a 1911. For too many a metal gun meant a revolver or a 1911, and to many it still does. That kind of ignorance is hard to break down, and S&W recognized this fact. LE was going to the Glock, younger buyers gravitated to polymer guns and the metal buying gun crew whined "it's not a 1911". The 3rd gen was left hanging out to dry.

 

[TTSH]

A huge thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and to my education on the subject of S&W 1911's. I have a better understanding now of the times and what motivated S&W to get into 1911 production thanks to you folks.

I've explained elsewhere more than once how life's crazy twists and turns kept me mostly away from my chosen hobby for 25 long years. The election of 2008 brought me back and I've been doing my very best to make up for the lost time ever since. This forum has been more than terrific in that regard. Thank you!

 

[cpeblue]

DSMC, with out writing a book you summed it up nicely in your 2 posts. You should have added that the boycott on S&W after there deal with Clinton didn't help sales . I don't own any of the value line Smiths nor would I. Of the 15 I do have , 5 are post 2000 tsw guns which I feel are the pinnacle of the 3rd gens, fit finish and function excel . Large manufacturers are all about volume and profit , I don't think $1000 3rd gens would fly off the selves .

 

[DMSC]

cpeblue, thanks. I was trying to forget 'Trigger Lock-gate'!

You are correct about that gaffe costing S&W a ton of sales and lifelong customers. In fact, I know of one fellow who sold everything S&W and has never gone back!

Someone mentioned a PC version of the 3rd Gen would probably sell. I think it would too. Something along the lines of the Shorty series guns in 9mm and 45.

Don't forget a nice full size for us lovers of big honkin' 45's!

sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk Pro

 

[1775usmarine]

Maybe a dumb question, but has anyone started a petition to S&W showing the interest in a continued 3rd gen market? I mean there are petitions for just about anything out there and some business have taken those petitions into consideration, or we can be like MDA/ Bloomberg and bully S&W into bringing back the 3rd gens.