Snub nose ammo

Cal44

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I found the following article interesting.

It gives a percentage of one shop "stops" where the BG broke off the attack after one shot in the torso. Shots in arms and legs eliminated from the data.

What makes this interesting, is it looks at results for "back up guns" meaning revolvers (or semi autos) with 2" or 3" barrels.

All results for 4 or more inch barrel guns not included.

The results were that 32 acp, 380 acp, 38 special, and 38 +p all gave about the same percentage of "stops" (as the author defines them).

The percentages were from about 65% to 70% for the best ammo types.

For 357 magnum out of a snub, however, the percentage went up to around 90% -- a significant improvement.

The best results for 38 special were +P versions of the old lead SWC HPs. This is probably due to most of the fancy new ammo types not expanding from a snub barrel.

Dave

<http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4593>
 
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This article is from 2004; I recall there was some criticism of it but I can't recall what or if it was valid. It would be interesting to see what current data there might be with micro .380s, 9 mms, .40 S & Ws and .45s and more modern ammo if they exist.
 
I notice the "old and out of date" Federal Hydra Shok made most of those lists and not far from the top. Still good stuff to this day it seems.
 
I truly think any "study" of one shot stops while interesting, totally unquantifiable. There are just too many variables in exact bullet impact & target size/density + the state of mind of the attacker plays a huge roll in whether they stop an attack or not. Everything is pretty much 100% with a CNS shot, so that gets tossed out of the "data base" as well. Yes interesting, but not definitive.
No one is getting me to believe a 32acp is the same as a 38sp+p LSWCHP load. Mass alone prevents good penetration w/ 32 & even 380, UNLESS ball ammo is used & you might as well be poking holes with an ice pick.
 
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I think that most of the same data (and a lot more) is contained in Marshall & Sanow's book "Stopping Power." Many people throw rocks at the M&S book about the methodology used and the published effectiveness of various calibers and cartridges given, but the fact remains that even Jesus Christ couldn't please everyone. And to my knowledge, there is no other publication which pulls all this data together.
 
I stick with the.....

Interesting, but I'll stick with the philosophy that you can't count on a one shot stop with anything and I'm planning on pulling the trigger more than once. I think that will take the percentage closer to 100%.:D:D:D
 
Re: OP. Not surprised. Do a good bit of deer hunting. It doesn't take a cannon to kill a deer stone dead right on out to a couple of hundred yards. Hard off the muzzle, just about anything will do. The .30-30 is just about unbeatable within 125-150 yds.

As applied to having to use a pistol of a person, it just doesn't take a cannon to get the job done. As with deer hunting, magazine articles and such will always push the line that one must have the hottest most powerful most newest engineered round/bullet/rifle combination to hunt deer. It just isn't at all the truth.

When it comes to self-defense calibers and revolvers/pistols, it's about the same thing. It just doesn't take a cannon to get the job done. It makes for lots of articles in magazines and on line, the quality of which varies. But, when you look at reports of actual incidents, the overwhelming vast majority do not support the idea that one must have a hand cannon to handle a SD/HD situation.

It isn't glamorous, it will not sell a lot of articles or generate a lot of views on YouTube, but the conclusions you reference are reality. The cognizant may decry them and look down their long noses at them, but calibers such as the plebian .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm and... not surprisingly the .22 LR simply work.

But, all that not withstanding, it is fun to sit around a chew the fat about what makes this or that caliber superior to any and all others when it comes to critical things such as SD/HD or ... poking holes in bowling pins or paper targets. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.
 
It isn't glamorous, it will not sell a lot of articles or generate a lot of views on YouTube, but the conclusions you reference are reality. The cognizant may decry them and look down their long noses at them, but calibers such as the plebian .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm and... not surprisingly the .22 LR simply work.

.

I think a lot of what causes the controversy is most tests of 38 special are made with "service" length barrels -- 4" or more.

And most tests of 32 acp and 380 are done with very small hide-out guns.

From a 4" or greater, 38 special is much superior on paper.

But, when you compare a 38 from a 2", the muzzle energy and likelihood of expansion is very similar to the 32 acp and 380.

Check the ballistics by the inch, if you don't believe that.
 
That is a nice report but there are others with a little different take on
the bullets used and the data moved around a bit.

Bullets and guns have their good days and bad days............

30 fps can make or break a bullet hitting a gel pack with or
without a 4 layer denim patch. I prefer the plain gel reports.

Then there is also the "Wet pack" newspaper test if you are
not able to do the gel thing. I am a poor country pumpkin and
am only able to afford water jugs..... (I gave up the Reno Gazette a few years ago)

Generally I KNOW what I want to use in a certain weapon......
just that the weapon does not agree on my selection !!

You don't always get to shot what you want........... or you can
but have to make "Adjustments"......................

If you have a weapon that shots ammo that you think is right
and it works........... you are one up on a lot of us !!
 
Marshall and Sannow's work's aren't just flawed, they are utterly worthless. If you look at their work in depth, they are nothing more than a very poorly put together aggregate of very raw and unusable numbers. With all of the factors that go into a stop, and only analyzing one factor out of many, the numbers are so out of context that they have absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Real understanding of terminal ballistics and the science behind putting a man down requires actually knowing how and why things happen, careful analysis of individual cases to understand cause and effect, and established knowledge of how factors affect the end result. Putting poorly gathered, incomplete statistics without context is not science, or relevant, or useful, but rather nothing more than an indicator for real research to be done. Marshall and Sannow's works are, at best, junk science, and misleading at worst. Whatever you do with those garbage works, take it with heaping teaspoons of salt and do real research to understand how and why. Those percentages should be disregarded without a second thought.

Also, don't buy into the whole "all bullets are equal", or "all calibers are equal", because they certainly aren't. The truth is, there has been so many failures to stop that can be attributed to caliber, load, and bullet selection alone, that many calibers and loads have been, for good reason, called into question. People who will tell you that .22LR and .32 ACP work as well as 9mm, 357 Magnum, or 45 will point to the times they worked well in circumstances that favoured the smaller caliber, but conveniently forget about the cases where those smaller rounds failed to penetrate deep enough to kill or incapacitate, where the larger or more powerful rounds would have, and prove that those smaller calibers have severe flaws, and can fail even if the shooter makes careful shots. Its amazing how cherry picked anecdotes can trump other anecdotes completely contradicting a belief; people who tout .22LR always remember the stories where they worked, and conveniently forget about all the times it failed, and a superior round would have worked.

Yes, choosing the wrong load with the wrong gun, the wrong barrel, can cause under penetration, and an otherwise successful stop of an aggressor could turn into a potentially fatal failure. No, the range queens aren't right when they say that shot placement is the ONLY factor, and that choosing a better round, or a larger caliber is only for idiots who can't aim or have big egos. No, those who claim that barrels, bullets, and calibers don't matter are not even close to being correct. Yes, when you choose lighter loads, lighter bullets, shorter barrels, and smaller calibers, you are trading off one advantage to gain another.

Does it take a cannon to kill a deer? No, but the people I know who brag about poaching them with a .22LR don't brag about the 10 they wounded for the one they killed. Does it take a cannon to kill a man who is attacking you? No, but in a life or death struggle, you want every advantage you can get, and in real life circumstances, with stress, and long penetration angles, an inadequate caliber, bullet, or load, can yield inadequate results. When your life is on the line, over kill does not exist, and it is under kill that will prove fatal to you. Perhaps the cannon isn't necessary in perfect conditions to kill a man, but in an emergency it is the surer bet to save your life from a threat. What is base minimum in perfect conditions has no relevance to the situation you face, and what will be required of you and your weapon.

A .308 or a 12 gauge shotgun are better for self defense and stopping a threat than any pistol, no matter what people have to say about shot placement, and how the fact they can put hole sin paper in well lighted areas under no stress will magically allow them to shoot bad guys between the eyes in a self defense situation like some bad movie. A powerful weapon is no substitute for marksmanship and a cool head, but don't believe the idiotic mantras that good marksmanship is a panacea for every problem, or a replacement for adequate firepower in certain situations, either.
 
Unless you are standing right behind the bad guy and nail him in the base of the skull a one-shot stop is nothing you can count on with a hand gun or many rifles for that matter. That is no excuse to carry a mouse gun, but if it's worth shooting it's worth shooting twice.
 
That's why I want....

I think a lot of what causes the controversy is most tests of 38 special are made with "service" length barrels -- 4" or more.

And most tests of 32 acp and 380 are done with very small hide-out guns.

From a 4" or greater, 38 special is much superior on paper.

But, when you compare a 38 from a 2", the muzzle energy and likelihood of expansion is very similar to the 32 acp and 380.

Check the ballistics by the inch, if you don't believe that.

That's why I want a 3" barreled gun. More easily gets up to that magic 1000 fps with a decent sized slug.
 
That's why I want a 3" barreled gun. More easily gets up to that magic 1000 fps with a decent sized slug.

Perhaps one of the reasons 32 ACP is more effective than one would think is with such light bullets (60 grains in the case of Win Silvertips), the velocity gets up into that range and you get some expansion.
 
I truly think any "study" of one shot stops while interesting, totally unquantifiable. There are just too many variables in exact bullet impact & target size/density + the state of mind of the attacker plays a huge roll in whether they stop an attack or not. Everything is pretty much 100% with a CNS shot, so that gets tossed out of the "data base" as well. Yes interesting, but not definitive.
No one is getting me to believe a 32acp is the same as a 38sp+p LSWCHP load. Mass alone prevents good penetration w/ 32 & even 380, UNLESS ball ammo is used & you might as well be poking holes with an ice pick.

That will get their attention too.
 
And the stopping power arguments go on forever. And probably always will. Huge numbers of people have been killed with a .22 LR. Huge numbers of people have not been killed by a .45 ACP. It all depends on where those bullets landed.
 
And around and around and around she goes, and where she stops nobody knows...

I just try to balance what I can shoot (in old age with bad hands) with what has a long track record of working in real life. There are as many answers as there are gun owners, I guess, but for me it's .38 Special LSWCHP, +P or the equivalent, in both two-inch and four-inch revolvers. So far.

If that changes it will be for reasons that make sense to me, and me alone, because only I will be trusting my life to it.
 
no handgun is a very good stopper.....

I've seen war footage showing a running solider still advancing for about 10 seconds after being shot in the chest with a a 50 caliber Browning machine gun round. What does this tell us?
 

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